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Old 10-12-2018, 07:16 PM   #1
brokendown
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1999 SL
Default Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

So i'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

My normal baby is in need of it's 2nd clutch - I don't have the cleaned out garage space, mental energy, or cold endurance to do it until spring. It also got smacked twice (while parked) damaging it's value and is getting pretty creaky, groany, and iwth other little things.

I tried borrowing a friends car with a plan to buy - which suddenly has a slipping transmission out of the blue and now i'm pulling my hair out.

So i'm back to looking at jumping back into a car that treated me so well i'd still be driving one if not for work I can't just do right now.

2002 Saturn SL1 but the DOHC apparently, 117k miles claimed, working AC, power windows/locks (which I don't care for honestly, I like my "nothing to break" SL0 manual everything even steering personally) and mostly need to know what I should look for for potential troublespots - and what I should offer as a price (including documenting it if it's less than what they wanted).

I mean i'm doubting there will be an obvious leak or it will have been cleaned up anyways for instance. I dont know if these models have any other weak points - i've been so happy with my red one except for how it seems to eat brake discs but that's a minor fix. I remember talk in the past about quill bearings and other things but although I know how to swap parts I can't say i'm an expert in inspecting for obvious or deceptive problems.

So what should I be looking for on another 'new old' Saturn and what would something with the above specs probably be worth? (generally seems nice from the pictures, except for a scuff on the bumper doesn't look like crash damage or interior damage or etc either) :-P

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Old 10-12-2018, 08:29 PM   #2
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2001 SL1
Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

"2002 Saturn SL1 but the DOHC apparently"?
Either they have swapped in a DOHC (SL2) or its got the SOHC engine as an SL1.
SL1 has all 4 plugs in the very front of the engine, whereas the SL2 has them in the middle of the valve cover, in the valley between the 2 heads.

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Old 10-12-2018, 08:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

I wish I was in your shoes. Too bad you only have until monday. Start looking on Craigs list, eBay, try the letgo app (I was amazed at how many Saturns for sale locally) and other websites you can think of etc. - Look hard because there really are some cheap gems out there lately.

Rusty rear door sills (thresholds) are a good indication of salt corrosion elsewhere. Look at the engine cradle for rust.

Look for one with low miles that most looks and smells like your Grandma’s place.

...
• 1997 SW2 used 12/29/2011 with 124,200 -27 mpg
• 2004 Ion3 new 11/2003 (totaled) 11/2011 -23 mpg
• 1994 SL1 new traded
• 1992 SL2 new traded for above
* 1986 Yamaha ce50 Jog -100 mpg

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Old 10-12-2018, 09:28 PM   #4
brokendown
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1999 SL
Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by toggenburg View Post
"2002 Saturn SL1 but the DOHC apparently"?
Either they have swapped in a DOHC (SL2) or its got the SOHC engine as an SL1.
SL1 has all 4 plugs in the very front of the engine, whereas the SL2 has them in the middle of the valve cover, in the valley between the 2 heads.
I havent seen pictures or looked at it in person yet... should I find it suspicious if there's a DOHC in an SL1? (and it's actually an SL1 not just really an SL2 - for that matter how can I tell)

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Old 10-12-2018, 10:08 PM   #5
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1997 SL2
Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

I wouldn't be concerned if someone put a DOHC into an SL1 (although I'd probably want to know why they did) You really just want to know what engine you're getting before you buy it so you don't overpay. I've noticed DOHC tend to go for a little more than SOHC

An easy way to tell if it's an SL1 it to look at the door handles. An SL1 has unpainted door handles, an SL2 had body matching one's. Theres some other things too that don't involve actually looking at the engine, but those don't always apply to special editions/different generations.

...
Feeling 22
1997 SL2, 109K miles

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Old 10-13-2018, 03:38 PM   #6
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Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeebins View Post
I wouldn't be concerned if someone put a DOHC into an SL1 (although I'd probably want to know why they did) You really just want to know what engine you're getting before you buy it so you don't overpay. I've noticed DOHC tend to go for a little more than SOHC

An easy way to tell if it's an SL1 it to look at the door handles. An SL1 has unpainted door handles, an SL2 had body matching one's. Theres some other things too that don't involve actually looking at the engine, but those don't always apply to special editions/different generations.
Okay so I checked it out - it's an SL2, not an SL1. However it's drum rear brakes and no ABS - I thought all SL2's had discs and ABS.

This is a dealer but he doesn't have the title available immediately - this would be cash or credit now, and we mail you the title. I would be more concerned from a private party, is a dealer likely to pull some bizarre title scam, or pull some bait and switch?

He pulled up some dealer thing suggesting the VIN and the title was not a salvage unit - what I also saw suggested 4 owners (A bit much for 117k?), it's an auction car and he knows nothing of prior owners. I also scrolled up and something said MMR $225-650 or so, with suggested $450 (tho based on a car at 143k - this being a bit lower). I assume that's what he probably bid or would be the wholesale value but dont know if it accounts for worn tires/etc.

Since he wants $2000 for the car and insists he will let it sit on the lot 6 months if he has to, I don't know what I should negotiate for a walk away price. I don't know how flexible he's likely to be. I pointed out some flaws - there's scuff marks on the front bumper, a crack in the rear indicating drivers bumping someone or being bumped. (since it's both I wonder if its the driver tho) Tires are worn - maybe another 5k on them, not sure i'd want to drive winter with them as they are. I panic stopped the brakes and they took a dive to the right/the rears locked up first. When he drove the car it didn't seem to do so as noticibly but he mighta just been controlling the steering well to make it seem that way - he insists nothing wrong with the brakes when my own drive suggested otherwise.

I dont like the dismissive way the guy tosses away concerns, it's clearly a low end dealer, 15 guys crammed into one lot with individual space for each of them and seems like take it or leave it prices.

On the good side I didn't notice obvious signs of leaks, the clutch grabs strongly even at 117k - I dont know if that means it should last the winter or not though (if that can be deceptive), or maybe someone even put in a clutch, but there's no service history - it was a trade in.

Coolant was real dirty and overdue for a change. Engine oil was really dark too. Other fluids looked good. Could'nt find the trans dipstick despite that I thought it was on the back of the engine from my own saturn. One other thing he mentioned putting in a crank sensor or something... I dont know if that was included or not included with that MMR price listed elsewhere.

AC seems to work - blows colder with on than the vent, but it's cold out in MN so hard to ultraverify this.

I dont see signs of actual crash damage, just the bumper scuffs. The seams under the trunk carpeting and such look intact, I dont see uneven seams between body panels or doors either. Rust in places on the undercarriage but nothing horrific looking.

Interior is mostly good but the drivers sun visor is horribly ratty, doesn't have big other impairments tho, it generally seems clean inside.

I'm pretty sure no matter what I document or say he wont take a big hit in price, so it's more of a question of how close to $2000 will I tolerate vs should I walk away. I'm assuming the rear brakes should be adjustable somewhat for grabbing strength (?) tho i've never had to on my own saturn before to equalize things out a bit...

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Old 10-13-2018, 06:45 PM   #7
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1999 SL2
1998 SC2
Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

I'd walk away. Maybe run. Dealer, no title? $2000?

...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

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Old 10-13-2018, 06:54 PM   #8
DonP1
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1999 SL2
Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokendown View Post
Okay so I checked it out - it's an SL2, not an SL1. However it's drum rear brakes and no ABS - I thought all SL2's had discs and ABS.
And you would be wrong there. Rear brakes are a fairly rare option as well as ABS. BTW, you can have ABS on drums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokendown View Post
This is a dealer but he doesn't have the title available immediately - this would be cash or credit now, and we mail you the title. I would be more concerned from a private party, is a dealer likely to pull some bizarre title scam, or pull some bait and switch?
My last two Saturns were bought from dealers this way. Trust me, a Saturn isn't worth it for them to perform some trickery on and risk their dealership.
I always got the title a few days later in the mail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokendown View Post
He pulled up some dealer thing suggesting the VIN and the title was not a salvage unit - what I also saw suggested 4 owners (A bit much for 117k?), it's an auction car and he knows nothing of prior owners. I also scrolled up and something said MMR $225-650 or so, with suggested $450 (tho based on a car at 143k - this being a bit lower). I assume that's what he probably bid or would be the wholesale value but dont know if it accounts for worn tires/etc.

Since he wants $2000 for the car and insists he will let it sit on the lot 6 months if he has to, I don't know what I should negotiate for a walk away price. I don't know how flexible he's likely to be. I pointed out some flaws - there's scuff marks on the front bumper, a crack in the rear indicating drivers bumping someone or being bumped. (since it's both I wonder if its the driver tho) Tires are worn - maybe another 5k on them, not sure i'd want to drive winter with them as they are. I panic stopped the brakes and they took a dive to the right/the rears locked up first. When he drove the car it didn't seem to do so as noticibly but he mighta just been controlling the steering well to make it seem that way - he insists nothing wrong with the brakes when my own drive suggested otherwise.

I dont like the dismissive way the guy tosses away concerns, it's clearly a low end dealer, 15 guys crammed into one lot with individual space for each of them and seems like take it or leave it prices.

On the good side I didn't notice obvious signs of leaks, the clutch grabs strongly even at 117k - I dont know if that means it should last the winter or not though (if that can be deceptive), or maybe someone even put in a clutch, but there's no service history - it was a trade in.

Coolant was real dirty and overdue for a change. Engine oil was really dark too. Other fluids looked good. Could'nt find the trans dipstick despite that I thought it was on the back of the engine from my own saturn. One other thing he mentioned putting in a crank sensor or something... I dont know if that was included or not included with that MMR price listed elsewhere.

AC seems to work - blows colder with on than the vent, but it's cold out in MN so hard to ultraverify this.

I dont see signs of actual crash damage, just the bumper scuffs. The seams under the trunk carpeting and such look intact, I dont see uneven seams between body panels or doors either. Rust in places on the undercarriage but nothing horrific looking.

Interior is mostly good but the drivers sun visor is horribly ratty, doesn't have big other impairments tho, it generally seems clean inside.

I'm pretty sure no matter what I document or say he wont take a big hit in price, so it's more of a question of how close to $2000 will I tolerate vs should I walk away. I'm assuming the rear brakes should be adjustable somewhat for grabbing strength (?) tho i've never had to on my own saturn before to equalize things out a bit...
I paid $1300 for a 1999 SC2 auto 139K with a rebuilt title, and $1000 for a 2001 SL2 auto 143K with obvious issues. But at least they had clean oil.

Both have needed work. I think the SC2 was a flood victim but is driving great, using little oil and getting over 30mpg. The 2001 is going to get a new valve body and hopefully that will put it on the road.

Neither have working A/C. The 1999 might have had it slightly working when I bought it. I would say after spending a lot of time and effort, if you really want A/C make sure it is working solid. And how would you know if the dealer didn't just fill up the A/C before you showed up? It's a crap shoot.

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Old 10-13-2018, 07:26 PM   #9
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1997 SW2
Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

What’s the rush?

If you have a budget of $2,000.00 then you should have your pick of Saturn S-Series cars - especially in the private sellers market.

Dealers want to make a big profit. It’s more of an annoyance to bother with a car that sells for $2,000.00. There’s just no profit in it for them. If you really want this particular car then research the actual blue book value and see if you have any negotiating leverage. Be like Trump and be willing to walk away and not look back. That’s when you’ll see the salesman start to negotiate.

Good luck

For example...
D662533D-C5CD-4D3D-9B68-05C08A55344D.jpg

...
• 1997 SW2 used 12/29/2011 with 124,200 -27 mpg
• 2004 Ion3 new 11/2003 (totaled) 11/2011 -23 mpg
• 1994 SL1 new traded
• 1992 SL2 new traded for above
* 1986 Yamaha ce50 Jog -100 mpg

Last edited by dummo; 10-13-2018 at 07:37 PM..

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Old 10-13-2018, 08:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/h...710620446.html

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/w...715493547.html

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/w...692344901.html

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/d...706701510.html

...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

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Old 10-13-2018, 09:02 PM   #11
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Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

MMR = Mannheim Market Report. They track what the make/model /year sells at their auctions - this is what dealers are buying for at the auctions. Figure your dealer probably paid less than $450 for it. Work up from there for the price you should pay.

(probably paid less than $450, because most dealers will just pass on a manual trans vehicle, unless it is really cheap, because at least half of potential buyers won't even consider it, as they can't drive it. )

$2,000 is full dealer retail - does not take into account the condition, mileage, location, optional equipment, etc. If you were buying the exact same car from an individual, you'd be paying about $1,000

It's weird that the dealer does not have the title. Auction house won't list a car without a title, and the winning dealer will leave the auction with an assigned title in hand. Dealer takes assigned title to your state DMV and your new title is mailed to you . . . but dealer should be able to prove that he owns every car on his lot.

Can't speak to MN, but in MI, being able to prove ownership on a dealer lot is required by law. Also required to keep a police book, showing every car sold, to whom, date, title number, vin, stock number, etc., for five years.

You'll want to check for rust, like dummo suggested. Mechanicals don't matter if the engine cradle splits

...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 124k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles

Last edited by alordofchaos; 10-13-2018 at 09:10 PM..

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Old 10-14-2018, 07:42 AM   #12
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Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

ABS was an option on every model, except possibly SL, '91-'02. Rear disc was an option '91-'97, probably standard w/ABS on SC/SC2/SL2 for those years. SOHC's & SW2's got rear drums and starting in '98 everything got rear drums (no more rear disc). Every '93-'97 I've owned w/ABS had rear disc (3 lol and they were SC2/SL2's).

If you have to have it then it's worth whatever you're willing to pay, but if you've the option of walking away without screwing yourself over then $1500 would be my limit. Hmm...maybe even less than that due to my somewhat irrational hatred of 3rd gens.

Dealers don't care about book value. Not one little bit. Tried to buy a $5,000 truck from a used dealer, claimed he was into it for $8,000 and wouldn't take a penny less than $10,000 (claiming that was the wholesale/auction price) despite it needing nearly $3000 in work/parts (Yes...I knew they were asking $10,000 before I showed up, didn't know it needed so much work). When I pointed out it books for $7,000 in perfect condition from 3 different places he basically said we charge whatever we want, you can't go by book values. Wanted the truck and needed the credit building opportunity but ended up walking out when he handed me an "Unsafe to Drive" liability waiver to sign.

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Old 10-14-2018, 03:38 PM   #13
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Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

And as always -- inspect for underbody rust!!!


Rust through is a deal breaker..

...
92 SC2
93 SC2
93 SW2
95 SC2
97 SL2
97 SC2
99 SC2
02 SC2
02 SL2

parts
2 94 SC2 parted out
3 96 SC2
98 SC2 - rusty frame minus engine.

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Old 10-14-2018, 05:03 PM   #14
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1997 SW2
Default Re: Help buying another SL (by monday) :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post

Dealers don't care about book value. Not one little bit.
Those are dealers not to be dealt with. I saved my mother in law 2,500.00 on a $6,000 used car by simply giving her a KBB printout to go back and negotiate with. She paid $3,500.00 for it.

Be willing to walk away.

I hope the dealer doesn’t know about your monday deadline.

...
• 1997 SW2 used 12/29/2011 with 124,200 -27 mpg
• 2004 Ion3 new 11/2003 (totaled) 11/2011 -23 mpg
• 1994 SL1 new traded
• 1992 SL2 new traded for above
* 1986 Yamaha ce50 Jog -100 mpg

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