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Old 08-07-2015, 08:18 PM   #1
RobertGary1
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Default California ARB proposed 134a regs

I just got an email from the ARB that they are having a public hearing on a propsed change to 134a regs. They are concerned that, even with the deposit, not enough cans are retuned. They are vague but I believe they will double the deposit and maybe increase the time to return. If anyone is interested in attending I can send an invite. It's in Sacramento and they have a dial in.

It's important that we keep small cans legal. Some at the ARB have questioned if they should ban less than 10 pound containers and require an epa license to discourage diy.


-Robert

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Old 08-07-2015, 08:32 PM   #2
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

The sooner California goes broke, the better for the rest of the country.

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Old 08-08-2015, 01:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Just order it buy the case online. Most outfits will ship non-CA cans to the state to this day. $4 per can in a case of 12.

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Old 08-08-2015, 01:26 PM   #4
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Find a long haul trucker.

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Old 08-09-2015, 01:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by colonelhogan44 View Post
Just order it buy the case online. Most outfits will ship non-CA cans to the state to this day. $4 per can in a case of 12.
This


As for an EPA 609...... It's easy to pass the test online. (got one to get R12)

...
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Old 08-10-2015, 08:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Where did you go to get this, and what was the cost?

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Old 08-10-2015, 08:52 PM   #7
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

http://www.epatest.com/609/openbook/

google is your friend

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Old 08-10-2015, 09:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by guyg View Post
And you have to buy a minimum of 10# at a time. Not an investment most are willing to make. The cans are nice for the DIYer.

-Robert

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Old 08-10-2015, 10:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

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Originally Posted by guyg View Post
Yeah, I found that before asking...but they ask for SSN, so I was suspicious.

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Old 08-10-2015, 10:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Be aware. Once you have an EPA license you are required by law to keep records of what you use and what you recover. You also cannot work with refrigerant unless you have a recovery system with you available. More rule and regs to follow once you have a license.

-Robert

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Old 08-10-2015, 10:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

I don't blame you. I have seen that site before but haven't researched it. they are on the EPA site .
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/.../609certs.html

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Old 08-10-2015, 10:52 PM   #12
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGary1 View Post
Be aware. Once you have an EPA license you are required by law to keep records of what you use and what you recover. You also cannot work with refrigerant unless you have a recovery system with you available. More rule and regs to follow once you have a license.

-Robert
This is always what happens when you get into playing with the government.

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Old 08-11-2015, 01:57 AM   #13
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by colonelhogan44 View Post
Where did you go to get this, and what was the cost?


Don't remember, it's been awhile.

There's various places, and I don't remember having to give my SSN.



And I (truthfully) have never had a system that had anything in it to recover......

...
Ed

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Old 08-11-2015, 02:09 AM   #14
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Only looks like only MVAC service shops need to record keep:

see bottom

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/down...tSheet2013.pdf

...
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:12 AM   #15
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

They're likely trying to be brief in the brochure. Here is the 609 manual section on records.


"Record Keeping Requirements

The Clean Air Act establishes the following rules for record keeping:

Any person who owns approved refrigerant recycling equipment certified for MVAC use must maintain records of the name and address of any facility to which refrigerant is sent.
Any person who owns approved MVAC refrigerant recycling equipment must retain records demonstrating that all persons authorized to operate the equipment are 609 Certified.
Any person who sells or distributes any Class I or Class II substance (in a container of less than 20 pounds of such refrigerant) must verify that the purchaser is Properly Trained and 609 Certified and must retain a record. The seller must have a reasonable basis for believing that the information presented by the purchaser is accurate.
All records must be maintained for 3 years. Entities which service MVAC systems, must keep the records on-site and must allow a representative of the EPA access to all required records.
Public Notification is also required. Any person who conducts any retail sales of a Class I or Class II substance, for MVAC units, and that is in a container of less than 20 pounds, must prominently display a sign that reads: "It is a violation of federal law to sell containers of Class I and Class II refrigerant of less that 20 pounds of such refrigerant to anyone who is not properly trained and certified to operate approved refrigerant recycling equipment."
Service shops must certify to the EPA that they own approved recovery equipment."


http://www.epatest.com/609/manual/

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Old 08-11-2015, 10:51 AM   #16
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Do you see the glaring loop-hole? A few years ago, when the deposit requirement was started for small containers, I couldn't buy any small cans as all local suppliers were unsure of what the compliance procedure was. However, 30# containers were available to anybody, no problem; over the magic 20# threshold. Spread that cost (about $300) over several cars and many years of slow leaks and it is reasonable.

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Old 08-11-2015, 10:56 AM   #17
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

The 20+ container is the only way to go. The last R-12 machine has left the building and the remaining 15lb of R-12 in a single container purchased many years ago has appreciated markedly and recently turned into steel engravings of U.S. Grant and Ben Franklin.

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Old 08-11-2015, 07:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Here's another loophole:

"Persons working on their own mobile air conditioning system are not covered under this rule and can add refrigerant without being certified"


See 'Equipment Use'

https://macsworldwide.wordpress.com/...f-refrigerant/

...
Ed

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Old 08-11-2015, 08:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: California ARB proposed 134a regs

Quote:
Originally Posted by emsvitil View Post
Here's another loophole:

"Persons working on their own mobile air conditioning system are not covered under this rule and can add refrigerant without being certified"


See 'Equipment Use'

https://macsworldwide.wordpress.com/...f-refrigerant/

I'm not sure that's much of a loop hole. If its legal to add refrigerant but if they require an EPA certificate to purchase it you'll run out eventually. Maybe like the 608 certs. You cannot buy any amount of R-22 without an EPA cert I believe. Its probably legal to add R-22 but you can't buy it.

I suspect, that eventually, they'll require a minimum of 10# for any purchase. That will get enough DIYers out of the market and they won't worry about the few remaining.

Honestly, I see these guys buy $50 cans of "A/C Pro" and I feel like grabbing their arm and warning them.

-Robert

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