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Old 03-22-2007, 12:13 PM   #1
NVMY03GT
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Default Harmonic Balancer?

Hey guys. I took my car over to another service shop and started asking about Timing chains. The mechanic was awesome he went out and asked me to replicate the noise. Again he was baffled he said that was not a Timing chain no way. He said it either does the noise or doesn't. He said the fact you took off the belt and the noise goes away amazes me. So he got a Master tech to come out and look at it. Master tech went out and pressed down on the alternator and the noise seemed to go away a little so he said it could be an alternator or possibly a "Harmonic Balancer". Which is much more reassuring than a TIMING CHAIN. So my question is. Not that I know how to fix it but can someone tell me where this Harmonic Balancer IS? Also is there a Tightning of the Alternator some how or anything that can even rattle on it?

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

He's talking about the large pulley that bolts to the end of the crankshaft. I have a rattling noise at certain RPM's and noticed that mine seems to wobble a bit. Let us know if he replaces it and if it fixes your problem.

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackeagle1 View Post
He's talking about the large pulley that bolts to the end of the crankshaft. I have a rattling noise at certain RPM's and noticed that mine seems to wobble a bit. Let us know if he replaces it and if it fixes your problem.
THATS the Harmonic Balancer? I know where the Crankshaft Pulley is. But I thought it was something that just sits down there and distributes noise. This does it at IDLE and its like a hard rattle and not a whine.

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

The crankshaft pulley and harmonic balancer are different names for the same part.

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackeagle1 View Post
The crankshaft pulley and harmonic balancer are different names for the same part.
Nice - What about this Alternator thing. Is it possible to Tighten one or is it one of those things Shot or not shot type of deals?

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:38 PM   #6
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

I don't think there is much you can do with the alternator. It's basically hard mounted and you should check if the mounting bolts are tight. If the alternator pulley is loose because of bad bearings, you would need to replace it.

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackeagle1 View Post
I don't think there is much you can do with the alternator. It's basically hard mounted and you should check if the mounting bolts are tight. If the alternator pulley is loose because of bad bearings, you would need to replace it.

yeah I agree if the pulley is shot thats one thing. Nice this mechanic has me thinking again!!! DAMNIT!!!

Is your rattle at IDLE? I can deal with a rattle while driving but when it gets cold and I start it up. Its not exactly neighbor friendly and when I put it in REVERSE God Help them all

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

Mine rattles all the time but it seems to be worse under load at about 1900 RPMs and is hardly noticeable otherwise while driving. The noise mostly goes away when I take off the belt. I have a couple of extra crank pulley's so I may try changing it to see if it makes a difference.

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

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Originally Posted by blackeagle1 View Post
Mine rattles all the time but it seems to be worse under load at about 1900 RPMs. The noise mostly goes away when I take off the belt. I have a couple of extra crank pulley's so I may try changing it to see if it makes a differnce.
See thats my problem mine rattles at IDLE only. 1900 the noise is gone so its the exact opposite

I don't know I may bite the bullet and let these guys look at it.

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Old 03-22-2007, 08:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

Someone mentioned a while ago something on the drivers side I could also look at to see if it was rattling something to do with the transmission I think but I don't remember what it was. It was some kind of plate or something?

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Old 03-22-2007, 08:51 PM   #11
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

this site is awesome! wish i found it before digging into the heart of my vehicle.

that harmonic balancer... what is the torque to get that bolt out? i had to borrow an 800 ft-lb air wrench to get it off. is that normal?

also, what's the deal with the chinese puzzle on getting that engine mount that's right there back in? i finally did it, but don't even remember how. there was a lot of swearing involved...

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Old 03-22-2007, 08:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skenzer View Post
this site is awesome! wish i found it before digging into the heart of my vehicle.

that harmonic balancer... what is the torque to get that bolt out? i had to borrow an 800 ft-lb air wrench to get it off. is that normal?

also, what's the deal with the chinese puzzle on getting that engine mount that's right there back in? i finally did it, but don't even remember how. there was a lot of swearing involved...
"LMFAO @ The Chinese Puzzle"

They actually make a special tool to pull out that Harmonic Balancer - I spoke to someone about it today thats the only reason I know. So it probably is normal for that amount of torue to get that thing out of there.

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Old 03-23-2007, 03:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

Wait a min... they could press down on the alt and "tighten" it up and the noise went away? How the heck does that work....

If your alternator has play in it, that may be your problem.

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Old 03-23-2007, 05:44 AM   #14
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaddy94sc2 View Post
Wait a min... they could press down on the alt and "tighten" it up and the noise went away? How the heck does that work....

If your alternator has play in it, that may be your problem.
Well the noise didn't go "AWAY" per say it just "altered" the noise is all really. I think the point he was trying to make is that its not a Timing Chain and its in a Belt Driven item which reassures me a little bit but I just wish I could find it now because if its Belt Drive I can replace one of those accessories. I meean any of them are not hard to get a hold of.

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Old 03-23-2007, 07:22 AM   #15
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

So the noise isn't there with the belt off? Defiantly a belt driven item then. Try spinning each one by hand (might want a cooled engine, I dunno how hot it gets on that side...). The one(s) with random resistance to turning or actually making a noise should be the culprit.

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Old 03-23-2007, 07:50 AM   #16
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

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Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
So the noise isn't there with the belt off? Defiantly a belt driven item then. Try spinning each one by hand (might want a cooled engine, I dunno how hot it gets on that side...). The one(s) with random resistance to turning or actually making a noise should be the culprit.
Correct - Noise is gone with Belt off.

All pulleys spin freely. I think its a shop thing time Its just going to piss me off when they find the culprit and its clear as day

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Old 03-23-2007, 09:05 AM   #17
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

Grasp one pulley firmly and push/pull sideways against the bearing(s) to feel for sideplay; compare one pulley against another to develop a feel for what's ok and what's not ok. The bad bearing's sideplay will be noticeable and by forcing it to one side is duplicating the side force of the belt (preload) and turning it simultaneously you'll feel worn balls. I know, but that's literally the best way to describe worn balls.

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Old 03-23-2007, 09:22 AM   #18
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

That mechanic must have REALLY thin arms as the alternator on an "S" series is located UNDER the powersteering pump and practically impossible to reach safely on a running engine.

"S" series engines are INTERNALLY BALANCED, they do not have "harmonic balancers. While the crankshaft pulley does provide some counterbalancing and vibration dampening for the end of the crankshaft in relation to the OILPUMP, and timing chain componants, it does not "balance" the engine in any way.

The belt tensioner keeps the tension of the installed belt fairly consistant. Even stressing an STATIONARY (as in solidly mounted and NON-Adjustable) belt driven componant will make NO DIFFERENCE in the stresses on the componants them selves. If the tone changed when he stressed the belt, it suggest the BELT itself may need replacing, or the pulleys themselves are dirty.

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Old 03-23-2007, 09:30 AM   #19
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

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That mechanic must have REALLY thin arms as the alternator on an "S" series is located UNDER the powersteering pump and practically impossible to reach safely on a running engine.

"S" series engines are INTERNALLY BALANCED, they do not have "harmonic balancers. While the crankshaft pulley does provide some counterbalancing and vibration dampening for the end of the crankshaft in relation to the OILPUMP, and timing chain componants, it does not "balance" the engine in any way.

The belt tensioner keeps the tension of the installed belt fairly consistant. Even stressing an STATIONARY (as in solidly mounted and NON-Adjustable) belt driven componant will make NO DIFFERENCE in the stresses on the componants them selves. If the tone changed when he stressed the belt, it suggest the BELT itself may need replacing, or the pulleys themselves are dirty.
Good call on the Harmonic Balancer. And yes he did have some Small arms to get down there I agree because its not exactly safe to get to.

The belt "appears" to be in decent shape. There is zero tension on it as I can attempt to pull on it when its all together and it moves next to nothing. The rattle I'm referring to doesn't sound like a "slip" It sounds like a Metal against metal rattle. As like the Alternator bolt could be rattling or as suggest above a bearing going bad in a pulley but like I said I've wiggled the pulleys and they don't have play to them. I've used a Stethescope to probe around and the most clatter I hear was the Power steering pump but the pump itself is anchored to the top of the engine so noise can replicate itself pretty easy. But again belt off noise goes away . The only thing I could do really is buy another belt without Power Steering to see if the noise goes away but them Im out $35.00 for a belt Ill never use again to replicate a noise.

Suggestions?

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Old 03-23-2007, 09:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: Harmonic Balancer?

Quote:
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Good call on the Harmonic Balancer. And yes he did have some Small arms to get down there I agree because its not exactly safe to get to.

The belt "appears" to be in decent shape. There is zero tension on it as I can attempt to pull on it when its all together and it moves next to nothing. The rattle I'm referring to doesn't sound like a "slip" It sounds like a Metal against metal rattle. As like the Alternator bolt could be rattling or as suggest above a bearing going bad in a pulley but like I said I've wiggled the pulleys and they don't have play to them. I've used a Stethescope to probe around and the most clatter I hear was the Power steering pump but the pump itself is anchored to the top of the engine so noise can replicate itself pretty easy. But again belt off noise goes away . The only thing I could do really is buy another belt without Power Steering to see if the noise goes away but them Im out $35.00 for a belt Ill never use again to replicate a noise.

Suggestions?
Odds are (expirence talking here) that what you hear is a DRY BEARING on either the tensioner or idler pulley. The bearing has not actually begun to FAIL yet (so no wobble) but is begining to and is "squeeking" under load.

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