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Old 09-20-2012, 09:03 AM   #1
PeteB
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2002 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
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Default Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Having had my L300's transmission serviced by Saturn authorized service last week, I decided to put it to the test last night and nailed it on an uphill freeway onramp.

As the title infers, all did not go well, though it took another 10-15 minutes of normal driving before the light came on. No light this morning, even after 45 minutes of driving. Code reader has nothing to say.

From reading on the forum, it looks like a transmission repair is in the cards. It does slip a little (disproportionate rise in RPMs vs. acceleration when throttle is applied).

I need to make this car last a couple of years for what I have in it, so will be a granny driver from now on. Does running through the gears using the shift lever help?

If I get a light again, I am fortunate to have authorized service very close to home, and can hopefully pull in to have codes read.

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Old 10-10-2012, 01:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

The wrench light came on a couple of days ago, so I drove straight to Saturn authorized service as planned. When the light came on, I was just tooling along in a 35-40 range, no drama to speak of, not even a noticeable long shift at that moment.

The code was P1811 maximum shift adaptation. The tech followed the recommended procedure to test line pressure and it checked out, and drove the car to observe shift points. The bill ($95) said that internal inspection is needed to check wear and condition of parts.

The service manager told me that this indicated wear of transmission parts (clutches and bands) and I am likely looking at a rebuild. He said that the tech tested the pressure solenoid repeatedly because of known problems.

I dunno, should I get a second opinion? The trans does slip somewhat, but I have driven worse. I'm thinking of throwing in a bottle of Lucas Trans Fix to see if that helps for awhile.

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Old 10-10-2012, 03:00 PM   #3
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Keep searching threads for P1811. I think its for the pressure control solenoid and replacing it. Its only business (if you know what I mean) you're getting that GM wants to prepare you for a "xmission rebuild" with as many parts as they can pad the bill since its your wallet supporting them.................

Although I am by no means an 'expert' here, threads seem to show that something as simple as replacing the pressure control solenoid was the answer. Access to the xmission to replace these solenoids is another matter..............Search threads for drawings, pictures, etc..

A "second" opinion from who? AAMCO will most likely suggest the same scenario. Remember, "Its just business, nothing personal....." Unless we're familiar with xmissions, most places will have us leaning over a barrel.................

BTW, from what I've learned here and from my service manuals, the harsh shifts are the defaults when our electronically controlled xmissions loses a solenoid. The brief explanation is that normal shifts are modulated by varying the pulse width signals to each solenoid to allow soft shifts. When failure occurs to a solenoid the shifts are hard as full pressure is used instead of varying pressure from each solenoid. The pressure control solenoid, to me, is the one that works the hardest all the time.

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Last edited by fdryer; 10-10-2012 at 03:06 PM..

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Old 10-10-2012, 09:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

The tech bulletin for P1811 says to do exactly what the tech did, to conduct a line pressure test and replace the CPS if it fails. Problem is, I don't trust anybody these days and big businesses are quite facile about extracting cash from the public. I have caught mechanics cheating me, a big reason for why I got into doing my own repairs years ago.

Replacing the PCS is quite a lot of work that will take time I don't have. The pros say it isn't the problem. Aargh.

Meanwhile, my alternator died today. I'm hoping that fixing that will benefit transmission function. Cars are strange beasts.

It is not outside the realm of possibility that the transmission is worn. The fluid was quite dark before it was changed recently, though the shop did not comment on metal in the pan or anything, and there is slipping but I've seen much worse. I may get a second opinion and do the additive thing if they say it needs a rebuild.

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Old 10-11-2012, 12:49 AM   #5
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Most of the time a Pressure control solinoid will fix P1811
I recomend have dealer replace PC solinoid and it would not hurt to change the fluld and filter ( no snake oil )
BTW the PC soliniod can be accessed by loosing the side cover from tran but not removing it from the vehicle, Then reaching in from the top. no need to loosen the frame and do alignment.Most likely this is all you will need.

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Old 10-11-2012, 04:18 AM   #6
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Thanks for your input.

How about the line pressure test? Is it reliable as an indicator of health of the CPS?

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Old 10-11-2012, 08:50 AM   #7
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

PCS (pressure control solenoid), not cps (crank position sensor/ckp).

The service manuals goes through a set of procedures to troubleshoot P1811 that includes monitoring xmission line pressures at various rpm's using the Tech II, noting pressures at certain rpm's. This helps a GM tech to narrow down where problems lie as opposed to everyone else (here) without training, a Tech II, and a hydraulic pressure gauge placed somewhere on the xmission to measure pressures. Procedures mention varying the signal level to the pcs to see what pressures are to correlate voltage/current to the pcs against actual pressures. This is the basic form of controlling shifts by electronically varying the pulse width modulated signals to each xmission solenoid that varies the valve opening to make shifts feel smooth as opposed to abrupt (high pressure) shifts when a solenoid fails. If this seems complicated, find the actual service manual description - its written for those already familiar with pulse width modulation electronics as a basis for electronically controlled xmissions.

What's already described is just the beginning. Procedures continue to determine whether or not the clutch packs are worn and replacement needed. In essence, if you are familiar with flow charts then you may have an idea that a logical sequence starts somewhere and ends with successful xmission engagement. In between are the questions that are yes/no that branches off to more troubleshooting until reaching a logical conclusion. Whether measurements or other tools/instruments are needed depends on which way the answers go to continue down a logical path that points the way to a solution. These procedures are complex and not posted as they are for trained GM techs using GM equipment like the Tech II that almost no one owns outside of dealerships for personal use due to the high costs for continuing ($$$) support from GM. What's left for Saturnfans is to piece together how to troubleshoot xmission issues without the GM method. Cut to the chase; replace the pcs.......................

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Last edited by fdryer; 10-11-2012 at 09:02 AM..

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Old 10-11-2012, 09:37 AM   #8
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Yes, PCS (a little brain fart there).

I have had a wrench light every morning this week, but the failing alternator may have had some effect. If the problem continues, there is a respectable transmission/engine shop that I know of, that I would like to talk to about just replacing the PCS. Should be just a few hundred bucks.

If the problem persists after that, then I will try the snake oil and drive until the problem becomes more serious.

The car drives quite well if driven moderately. Shifts into upper gears are a bit indecisive if shooting for a cruising speed of 35-40 at light throttle, much better if getting onto a freeway.

Something that pushes me towards the snake oil is that I had a high-mile tranny flushed without knowing the history of the car. I understand that in such a situation, the crappy old oil provides friction to facilitate shifts, something that the snake oil should put back. Once it is determined that the transmission is badly worn, that is.

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Old 10-11-2012, 12:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

The lesser evil of the two would be a xmission flush/filter replacement before going with a pcs replacement?

...
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

I splurged on a dealer tranny flush and filter shortly after buying the car in August. Went with SAS because I was concerned about the transmission as a possible weak link (high mileage GM car plus I sprouted an axle seal leak on my drive home that I repaired myself). Wanted as few variables as possible in the condition of the transmission.

Replaced my alternator today and am hoping that the failing alternator coincided with more frequent errors this past week. I had only had one previously, when I gave the car a little acid test after having the transmission service.

I will replace the PCS before experimenting with stiction enhancers, so I think we are on the same page. Thanks!

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Last edited by PeteB; 10-11-2012 at 12:56 PM..

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Old 10-14-2012, 06:38 PM   #11
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

After replacing my alternator on Thursday my transmission set codes 3 times on Friday and once early Saturday. Since then, I have done a LOT of driving in the 35-45 range in which codes usually set, with no problems.

I am going to what is supposed to be a good transmission shop probably tomorrow and see what they have to say. A big question of mine is whether the line pressure test is definitive in assessing the condition of the PCS. A bad PCS will give the symptoms that I have. Can the problem be intermittent? I'm hoping also that they can tell more from driving/testing the car than I can.

If they give me the worn tranny/need a rebuild party line I have a bottle of Transmission Fix to try.

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Old 10-15-2012, 02:40 AM   #12
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

If the battery was disconnected for alternator replacement, the ecm lost its memory and defaults to factory settings when power is applied. The ecm will relearn or tune itself as the car is driven and may exhibit temporary drivability issues but quickly disappear in as little as one or two drives or as long as a few days. Long term fuel trims and shift points are some of the parameters that are relearned to customize each engine/xmission to the way a driver operates it. This period of readjustment sometimes occurs unbeknownst to a driver or announces itself by exhibiting unusual behavior. Any issues that were occurring before a battery disconnect would return. Pre-existing issues would just combine with the relearning period to present new unusual problems until the readjustment phase goes away, leaving the original problem.

You would be very fortunate if the alternator was the cause of erratic xmission issues that goes away. This would be the best possible outcome.

No one can tell you whether or not a line pressure test by any xmission shop will tell you anything. Its solely up to each repair shop to deal with a customer honestly. Line pressure talk is way beyond the scope of many car owners since basic hydraulics is not in everyone's brain database. There are charts to refer to when making line pressure measurements that takes time for setting up. Time you pay for that is to the advantage of repair shops in negotiating a large repair estimate...................................

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Old 10-15-2012, 10:28 AM   #13
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Took my car to the transmission shop this morning after an hour's mixed driving with no wrench light. They reported that fluid was a quart low, which can't have helped. They cleared the codes, and I am going to drive for a week to see what happens, and have an appopintment to see what the TCM has to say after that. The car's driving better than ever.

The shop owner asked if I had any service lights before the Saturn-authorized Chevy dealer had serviced (and underfilled) it, and was pretty disgusted when I said no. He said that it was a bad idea to service an old transmission of indeterminate history. I agree that it's a crapshoot, but I want to get another 100k out of it. He also said that I do good work.

Nice shop, all ASI certified but not glitzy. My kind of place.

...
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:29 PM   #14
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Seems like you found a "reputable repair shop" that may be around due to dealing in an honest fashion.

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Old 10-15-2012, 12:46 PM   #15
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Here's hoping! They didn't charge despite my repeated invitations to do so. Not sure I like that, feel like I'm being courted. Of course, if a transmission throws codes when it's down a quart, all can't be that well. We'll see how it goes.

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Old 10-22-2012, 09:19 AM   #16
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Made it almost a week, but the service light appeared again on Saturday. Circumstances were a bit different this time, as it occurred on acceleration from rest to about 30mph. Felt like a small amount of wheelspin to me, but I guess the transmission was slipping.

Went back to the transmission shop today, and the guy wanted to start a meaningful relationship with my car, i.e., keep it. I asked him if he could check codes, he said it would be the same P1811. I left.

This shop has a bunch of cars in a side lot. Mechanic's liens?

The GM dealer claimed that they did a line pressure test, but the evidence suggests that the car was not touched at all. With a huge repair looming, it seems to me that the safest course would be to spend a day swapping out the PCS myself to at least rule it out. Wish I had time.

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Old 10-25-2012, 10:43 AM   #17
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Happened again today, also starting from rest. Interesting how it has morphed from a mid-speed issue to a low-speed issue. with no noticeable slippage or slow shifts.

Yesterday I did a WOT run up that same on-ramp as in my original post, with no codes resulting. Second gear was very strong to redline with a nice shift right on time. Third gear acceleration was slightly ragged, like a little air/fuel starvation.

Going to clean the MAF sensor just for the heck of it.

I am leaning towards a DIY replacement of the PCS if errors persist.

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Old 12-01-2012, 09:35 AM   #18
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Had my car in to a mechanic a few weeks ago for a leaking oil pan seal (I don't work on cars in bad weather if I can help it) and mentioned the error codes. He shrugged and commented that they often go away by themselves.

Last week the occurrences were becoming quite frequent and it looked like I was going to have to do something, then this week... nothing. Cooler weather may be a factor, with decreased viscosity of the ATF, in which case the Lucas product looks the way to go if errors come back when temps rise. Saturn, heal thyself! It also self-healed another small oil leak from somewhere other than the pan.

Still haven't cleaned the MAF sensor, but will do that prior to dosing with additives, air density being also affected by temperature

...
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:34 AM   #19
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

The charm broke yesterday when the wrench light came on after an unremarkable five mile trip on city streets. I was driving the car gently and shifting seemed fine.

I cleaned the MAF sensor with CRC cleaner. In 40 miles of mixed driving that followed, the light came on objectionably often. The session started with the light appearing within 1/4 mile of my house. Cleaning the sensor did smooth out hard acceleration in third gear, at least.

I bought a bottle of Transmission Fix and put in half of it while the engine was left running. I then drove several miles to mix it in. Shifting was noticeably smoother right away. At the end, I tried to provoke a wrench light and could not.

I've decided that the limp-home mode is a PITA. At such times, the transmission acts as though it's trying to grenade itself, while generally there is very little wrong with the transmission's performance for a +100k car. I yearn for the old days when an aging transmission could limp along for years without euthanasia.

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Old 12-06-2012, 09:39 AM   #20
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Default Re: Wrench service light and harsh shifts

Had a 20 mile trip this morning, very familiar route, and the light did not come on in the usual places. I think that the Lucas Transmission Fix was an effective temporary measure. Will post again if anything changes.

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