SaturnFans.com
saturnfans.com - classifieds - forums - webmail


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-20-2014, 01:47 PM   #1
reemoe
Member
reemoe is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 194

1995 SC1
Default Extra-long Oil Filters

What are the pros and cons of using an extra long oil filter on an S-series (i.e., going from say a Fram Ultra XG3614 (never used before, but wanting to try) to the extra-long version XG3600?

I just hit 225,000 miles on my 1995 SC1. Should I just stay with what I've always used (regular-sized Wix or Purolator)?

Thanks in advance,
Ryan
reemoe is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 12-20-2014, 02:18 PM   #2
Pitcher
Master Member
Pitcher has a spectacular aura aboutPitcher has a spectacular aura aboutPitcher has a spectacular aura about
 
Pitcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,703

1998 SC2
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

I use nothing but Extended Length Oil Filters in the 4 Saturns I take care of.

Here's A LOT on the subject right here. Read up.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...o__with_an_Ove
...
Proud Owner of an Invincible '98 SC2 Rare "Red Hot" 5-Speed.
Castrol Edge EP + M1 Ext Perf. Oil Filter.

Owned 4 other S-Series.
Pitcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2014, 05:34 PM   #3
reemoe
Member
reemoe is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 194

1995 SC1
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Thanks, Pitcher. I took a look at your link - Does anyone know whether the bypass valve of the XG3600 is the same PSI as the XG3614?
reemoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2014, 06:48 PM   #4
westwind999
Senior Member
westwind999 will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,707
 

1999 SL2
1999 SW1
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Yes, they are the same. The only difference is the length, which adds volume and more filter area. No reasonable down side that I've been able to find.
westwind999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2014, 06:56 PM   #5
J N Winkler
Advanced Member
J N Winkler is a jewel in the roughJ N Winkler is a jewel in the roughJ N Winkler is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 920

1994 SL2
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

My concern about extra-long filters--and I am not sure it is reasonable--is that the added length means the oil pump needs more time to get the oil moving in the galleries when the engine is started cold, which one would expect to result in more engine wear during cold starts.
J N Winkler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2014, 07:08 PM   #6
westwind999
Senior Member
westwind999 will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,707
 

1999 SL2
1999 SW1
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Any idea what that time difference would be?

The filter shouldn't empty due to the anti drain back valve so it's just a matter of the pressure building at startup. I'm thinking the difference is in some small fraction of a second as oil isn't compressible. Anyone want to time how long it takes for the oil light to go out with the two different setups?

The advantage with more surface area of the filter media is the ability to catch more dirt. With more area the oil moves more slowly through the media making it more likely to get trapped. Of course, more area also means it takes longer to get clogged and then go into bypass. These are bigger advantages then the minor pressure delay in my opinion.
westwind999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2014, 07:28 PM   #7
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
My concern about extra-long filters--and I am not sure it is reasonable--is that the added length means the oil pump needs more time to get the oil moving in the galleries when the engine is started cold, which one would expect to result in more engine wear during cold starts.
As Westwind explained above, Once filled the anti drainback valve keeps them mostly full. The fill time is insignificant.
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2014, 11:31 PM   #8
PlasticCarsRock
Master Member
PlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the roughPlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the roughPlasticCarsRock is a jewel in the rough
 
PlasticCarsRock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Brookline, MA
Posts: 4,317
 

1995 SL2
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

As has already been mentioned, assuming you have a quality filter with a working anti-drainback valve, there will be no fill time, and pressure should build nearly instantly, regardless of filter size (as oil is not compressible, volume doesn't matter, just the pump rate and leakage rate, which have nothing to do with the filter). If you want to get really picky, you could consider the filter's resistance to flow: the higher this is, the more pressure will build in front of it before reaching the engine (we're talking small fractions of a second): in this case, though, the larger filter is the winner.

As far as drawbacks: you'll need to buy more than 4 quarts of oil because you will need a bit more than 4 quarts with the oversize filter (not a significant cost, but 4 1 quart bottles won't cut it). Of course, being a Saturn, you should always have spare oil on hand, so this really shouldn't be an issue. Also, if you need to change the alternator, you will need to remove the filter, because the extended filter does not leave enough room to remove the alternator. Again, this is hardly a big issue.

As far as pros, there are a lot more. Larger filter means slower flow per square inch of media which means better filtration, less pressure drop, less bypassing on cold starts, better oil flow on cold starts, etc. Having a bit extra oil also helps lower the oil temperature slightly, which has a number of benefits as well.

There is rarely much of a difference in cost, so going with the bigger filter is really a no-brainier.

Everyone has their own favorite filter, but I prefer the Mobil 1 M1-209. It's a bit pricy, but can occasionally be found at a good discount. They're $8 each on Amazon now, which isn't bad, but I have seen them even cheaper. I have seen some test results which indicate that they (M1) may be better than Amsoil's top offerings, but test results can be deceiving, and that may vary with the model of filter, too. (It should be noted that I am a big fan of Amsoil fluids, but to me, their filters are not worth the extra price.)
...
High compression build: .033" shaved/ported head, flat-faced valves; gen3 rods, pistons, tie-plate; OE header, custom CAI, SDA street cams with adjustable sprockets, WBO2, SAFCII, LSD. ASE A1-A8+L1
PlasticCarsRock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 01:47 AM   #9
J N Winkler
Advanced Member
J N Winkler is a jewel in the roughJ N Winkler is a jewel in the roughJ N Winkler is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 920

1994 SL2
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Thanks for these comments. It seems that, with the proviso that the anti-drainback valve works, the delay in oiling the engine at startup really only exists at the first start after a filter change, before the oil pump has had a chance to fill the new filter.

Does anyone have tips on filter priming technique? I have never been able to do it with side-mounted filters without having some of the oil escape, and in Saturns I worry about leakage onto the CV joint boots and so on.
J N Winkler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 04:54 AM   #10
wi111y
Advanced Member
wi111y is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 866

1995 SL
1995 SW2
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
Thanks for these comments. It seems that, with the proviso that the anti-drainback valve works, the delay in oiling the engine at startup really only exists at the first start after a filter change, before the oil pump has had a chance to fill the new filter.

Does anyone have tips on filter priming technique? I have never been able to do it with side-mounted filters without having some of the oil escape, and in Saturns I worry about leakage onto the CV joint boots and so on.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't even try to fill the filter before I put it on anymore...

Screw filter on, fill car with oil, start. Oil light is out in 2 seconds tops.
...
'95 SL 5 Speed 220k - DD
'95 SW2 5 Speed 230k - Gone!
'95 Camaro Z28 - Project
'00 Tahoe Z71 - Truck stuff
wi111y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 08:01 AM   #11
underthehood
Master Member
underthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the rough
 
underthehood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rockford IL area
Posts: 2,396

1999 SL2
2004 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Yep long is all I use. But NEVER EVER Fram. Junk pure and simple. After personally having them fail me (externally) who knows what happened to their junk media? I stopped buying trash.
I use now only Mobil 1 or Bosch Distance plus filters. In a pinch I'll use WIX but I now avoid them due to being made in China.
...
2006 Toyota Highlander (rare 4 cyl AWD)
2001 Toyota Highlander V6 AWD creampuff
Daughter got her own! 2005 Lexus ES330 Dream Ride
underthehood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 08:08 AM   #12
Pitcher
Master Member
Pitcher has a spectacular aura aboutPitcher has a spectacular aura aboutPitcher has a spectacular aura about
 
Pitcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,703

1998 SC2
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by underthehood View Post
Yep long is all I use. But NEVER EVER Fram. Junk pure and simple. After personally having them fail me (externally) who knows what happened to their junk media? I stopped buying trash.
I use now only Mobil 1 or Bosch Distance plus filters. In a pinch I'll use WIX but I now avoid them due to being made in China.
Yes, never use Fram Orange Can (Of Death) OCOD for short.

Meets bare minimum specs + uses cardboard endcaps.

Fram Ultra is an excellent filter though with excellent specs & torn-apart photos showing a quality build. You won't catch me buying one though, I don't want to give money to a company that makes junk filters. I stick with NAPA Gold/Wix/Mobil 1 Ext. Performance.

There are MANY reports of torn pleats in regular Purolators & PureOne's, so I am done with those as well.

Stick with quality.
...
Proud Owner of an Invincible '98 SC2 Rare "Red Hot" 5-Speed.
Castrol Edge EP + M1 Ext Perf. Oil Filter.

Owned 4 other S-Series.
Pitcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 09:49 AM   #13
VUEmaniac
Senior Member
VUEmaniac is a jewel in the roughVUEmaniac is a jewel in the roughVUEmaniac is a jewel in the roughVUEmaniac is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,526
 

1997 SC2
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by underthehood View Post
Yep long is all I use. But NEVER EVER Fram. Junk pure and simple. After personally having them fail me (externally) who knows what happened to their junk media? I stopped buying trash.
I use now only Mobil 1 or Bosch Distance plus filters. In a pinch I'll use WIX but I now avoid them due to being made in China.
The bargain basement orange filter is crap. The ToughGuard (and it's more expensive cousins on up the line) are actually well regarded. I have no problem using those at all and they're widely available at a decent price at any Walmart. I think the last batch I bought were a bit over $5/each and I normally run full synthetic (Rotella T6) oil to 7500 mile change intervals.

Luckily, my DOHC doesn't use any significant amount of oil, but I'd rather spend that price delta (compared to the fancy M1 filter) on a spare quart of oil.

Some info on the ToughGuard from their site, but there's a lot more on BITOG:

http://www.fram.com/oil-filters/fram...il-filter.aspx

Best,
...
---
Don't blame a clown for acting like a clown. Ask yourself why YOU keep going to the circus.
VUEmaniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 12:12 PM   #14
Signmaster
Master Member
Signmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to behold
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 6,227
 

1995 SL1
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
Thanks for these comments. It seems that, with the proviso that the anti-drainback valve works, the delay in oiling the engine at startup really only exists at the first start after a filter change, before the oil pump has had a chance to fill the new filter.

Does anyone have tips on filter priming technique? I have never been able to do it with side-mounted filters without having some of the oil escape, and in Saturns I worry about leakage onto the CV joint boots and so on.
I often fill the new filter almost full, before I even start getting the car ready for the change. That way it gets all the air out and fills the pleats in the filter with oil. Then I just dump out some just before spinning it on.

Good point on the anti drainback valve needing to work. I tossed a couple of the Pure One filters due to some start up noise. It's possible that the extra capacity exposed a noise that might not have happened even if a short filter had a bad valve.
...
Alordofchaos is worthy and hides in shadows only to hone his S Series knowledge ninja skills. Swift, silent, trustworthy.
Signmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 01:12 PM   #15
underthehood
Master Member
underthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the rough
 
underthehood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rockford IL area
Posts: 2,396

1999 SL2
2004 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Have no faith in Fram. I can buy high quality filters for the same or less than Fram (so called) higher end units. So I see no reason to patronize the company.
...
2006 Toyota Highlander (rare 4 cyl AWD)
2001 Toyota Highlander V6 AWD creampuff
Daughter got her own! 2005 Lexus ES330 Dream Ride
underthehood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 01:28 PM   #16
Signmaster
Master Member
Signmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to beholdSignmaster is a splendid one to behold
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 6,227
 

1995 SL1
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by underthehood View Post
Have no faith in Fram. I can buy high quality filters for the same or less than Fram (so called) higher end units. So I see no reason to patronize the company.
That's ok with me. I have less faith in Purolator after having some obvious issues with the Pure One filters. Right now the car has a Fram unit on it and I sleep better at night.
...
Alordofchaos is worthy and hides in shadows only to hone his S Series knowledge ninja skills. Swift, silent, trustworthy.
Signmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 01:41 PM   #17
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
Thanks for these comments. It seems that, with the proviso that the anti-drainback valve works, the delay in oiling the engine at startup really only exists at the first start after a filter change, before the oil pump has had a chance to fill the new filter.

Does anyone have tips on filter priming technique? I have never been able to do it with side-mounted filters without having some of the oil escape, and in Saturns I worry about leakage onto the CV joint boots and so on.
I fill every filter before install. This is far from difficult to do. Figure the empty volume of filter housing and pour 1/2 of that volume into the housing and allow the filter media to saturate. While looking into filter spin it in your hand and see if the center core area completely empties, if it does add a bit more oil and repeat. Pay attention to the volume of oil in the filter housing as you can get almost 75% of your calculated volume into the filter and have the core area stay empty while spinning the filter. Once filed oil the gasket, clean off the filter base and spin it on. It is the centrifugal force produced by spinning that keeps the oil in the filter and off the floor. Catch the first 2 threads and it is basically leak tight.

Old shopping bag keeps oil off the boot.
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2014, 01:53 PM   #18
VUEmaniac
Senior Member
VUEmaniac is a jewel in the roughVUEmaniac is a jewel in the roughVUEmaniac is a jewel in the roughVUEmaniac is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,526
 

1997 SC2
Default Re: Extra-long Oil Filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by underthehood View Post
Have no faith in Fram. I can buy high quality filters for the same or less than Fram (so called) higher end units. So I see no reason to patronize the company.
Cool. That's what makes America great. You have a choice. If you can buy a higher quality filter for less than $5, good for you.

Best,
...
---
Don't blame a clown for acting like a clown. Ask yourself why YOU keep going to the circus.
VUEmaniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
extra speakers in an sc2 sc2_44 S-Series Tech 3 04-13-2009 01:25 AM
Overloaded w/Saturn issues (LONG LONG story) cgenovese L-Series Tech 7 04-25-2007 06:56 PM
25 Extra HP for Sky for $5.99?? Can this be? SKYGAZR Sky General 8 05-20-2006 06:08 PM
Saturns Over the Long Haul (Beware: Long Post) IONicSaturn General Saturn Discussion 8 05-13-2003 10:44 PM
extra box on air intake? Space-Boy '97SL2m S-Series Tech 3 04-06-2000 06:31 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:21 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.