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Old 03-01-2012, 03:59 PM   #1
GPCBAKER
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1996 SW2
Default Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

I know I have read about this problem from another thread but I can't seem to find it again. Replaced the complete clutch hydraulics (PF9000 I think) on my 96 SW2 today and buttoned everything up. Got in for a test drive but the clutch pedal won't depress. Don't want to get really rough with if in fear of breaking something. What should I check or what did I miss? Thanks - ED

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Old 03-01-2012, 04:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

where they brand new?

if so the first pedal push needs to be hard enough to snap the piece of plastic that held the pin in the slave.

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Old 03-01-2012, 04:10 PM   #3
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Yes, it is brand new from Advance Auto. I read that I should leave the plastic tip on the slave cylinder but I don't see it being this hard to break loose. You can put a lot of pressure on the clutch pedal and I don't want to break the master cylinder. Is it really that hard to press to break the plastic holds loose?

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Old 03-01-2012, 04:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Went back and applied more pressure to the clutch pedal. Heard and felt something snap. Now the clutch is all the way down to the floor and won't return back in place. Could I have poped the slave out of the hole it's in, or was in?

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Old 03-01-2012, 04:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Looked things over and started under the dash. Quick find. I bent the clutch pedal push rod going to the master cyl. bent close to the pedal so I hope I can get it straightened out enough to use. Still can't push rod into master cyl enough to push in the slave. I guess I will remove everything and straighten push rod and verify operation of clutch before adding the removed items, batt, case, air box, tube etc. I would still like to know why master won't depress.

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Old 03-01-2012, 05:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPCBAKER View Post
Looked things over and started under the dash. Quick find. I bent the clutch pedal push rod going to the master cyl. bent close to the pedal so I hope I can get it straightened out enough to use. Still can't push rod into master cyl enough to push in the slave. I guess I will remove everything and straighten push rod and verify operation of clutch before adding the removed items, batt, case, air box, tube etc. I would still like to know why master won't depress.
Cant imagine what would bend that without extreme force unless it was already damaged. :-/

Your reading could have been one of my posts... I dont have a link handy but search for my name. From what I remember having just dealt with it, when I first put my clutch hydraulics back in after a clutch job I blew out my slave cyleinder. I pushed fairly hard (panic stop hard) because it was a rock hard pedal that wouldn't give at all... this happens when the little pin wont align with the detent thingie in the clutch fork, which is very hard to get back in place without the plastic "hat"/retainer thingbob which is on a new clutch hydraulic system.


What I would probably do if it were me, to avoid blowing out the slave cylinder and spending another $140 (note: minor risk warning) is to remove the slave cylinder to verify the clutch is working properly first... you can also see if the plastic "hat"/retainer is still in place. (if it's not you potentially now have a bigger problem or hassle, hence the warning) TAKE IT OUT VERY CAREFULLY - the moment it starts to pop out try and wedge a finger in (or even a magnet) down under it, just in case the retainer is not in place or is hanging loose. What you are trying to do is prevent the metal pin from sliding off inside the transmission case if the retainer is already broken. If it comes out intact (plastic retainer still on top, pin in place, etc) then all is fine. If NOT stop here and post followup maybe with picture - you will want to identify what did come out so we can help you know what youre fishing for or trying to feel around to get out of the transmission. :P

But assuming it comes out ok...

You should be able to push in on the detent on the clutch fork where the slave cylinder goes with firm finger pressure - or I was able to anyways. It should move in at least a half inch maybe three quarters or so. It wont be terribly obvious, it will almost feel like metal bending (but the metal is too thick to bend, just saying what it felt like to my fingers, a springy feeling). If it DOESNT move in, there is some internal problem inside the clutch and forcibly pushing the pedal will just blow it out.

Assuming the clutch moves in fine, and the plastic "hat" is still on there, try repositioning the slave cylinder inside there, popped back in, and then try the clutch again. It SHOULD align with the plastic thingbob on top of it automagically, however this is a *****y part and it's possible it got a little cocked sideways or something by accident or rough handling. You felt how you could push in the clutch with your fingers? It doesn't take much force. that much plus a little more... i'd guess popping the hat/retainer off adds maybe 10lbs of force on the pedal. If youre trying "firm stop level" thats too much, there's a little pop and that's it. If you push hard, hear a LOUD pop and then hear fluid running you just blew the slave like I did. :P

If the plastic "hat" is NOT on top of there then you have a problem. >_< And removing the slave potentially made it worse. However you had a problem anyways if it wasnt going down because if you already popped off the retainer internally and it was not operating the clutch then things didn't align and you were going to go fishing for parts anyways.

You should NOT make a habit out of removing the slave cylinder if it is functioning properly. Aligning that pin when the retainer is not on there seems to be a nightmare and the pin can drop down inside the transmission. If the plastic part is still on top (though broken) and the pin comes out okay you might be able to glue or something the plastic back to help it realign to put in a second time, or thats what I was planning if I ever did the clutch job in the future...

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Old 03-01-2012, 07:15 PM   #7
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Brokendown - thanks for the information. I took everything back apart and straightened the master push rod. Had to fiddle with it on the bench just to get the master to move the slave's push rod. Once They moved 'together' I put the slave back in (with the plastic tiped piece on but 'snapped hold-in' plastic which caused the cylinder to be difficult to push in) and tried to see if the master push rod would push in slightly. No such luck, it's as if the slave is stuck in place or the rod in the master is not going into the cylinder. You're right, a $140 piece is now in question of being serviceable. The clutch arm as viewed through the slave cyl hole, appears dropped a little. I'm guessing this is OK..?? It's dark thirty time now so this will have to wait until tomorrow. I will continue to search through the forum for any ideas. This was not supposed to be a difficult project.

...
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:26 PM   #8
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

take your old unit, pop the cap, empty the fluid and pump the master and slave until al the fluid is out. fill it with DOT 3, put the cap on, and start pumping the master. remove, fill, and repeat. do this until you dont have to add more fluid.

install and try it in the car.

as long as the seals are good in the old unit you will be set.



it sounds like your 'new aftermarket' unit may be defective.

...
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Redhotftw - sounds good. Nothing to lose. Tomorrow (if it don't rain) I'l give the old unit a try. I don't think it was leaking. Just had the clutch disengaging really close to the floor. Went through the gears fine with engine not running. Had to almost synchronize the shift with the engines RPM's to shift gears on the road. I'll keep the thread updated.

Thanks - Ed

...
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPCBAKER View Post
Redhotftw - sounds good. Nothing to lose. Tomorrow (if it don't rain) I'l give the old unit a try. I don't think it was leaking. Just had the clutch disengaging really close to the floor. Went through the gears fine with engine not running. Had to almost synchronize the shift with the engines RPM's to shift gears on the road. I'll keep the thread updated.

Thanks - Ed
sounds like how mine was.
it worked out great for me and saved me cash.

...
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:12 PM   #11
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPCBAKER View Post
Brokendown - thanks for the information. I took everything back apart and straightened the master push rod. Had to fiddle with it on the bench just to get the master to move the slave's push rod. Once They moved 'together' I put the slave back in (with the plastic tiped piece on but 'snapped hold-in' plastic which caused the cylinder to be difficult to push in) and tried to see if the master push rod would push in slightly. No such luck, it's as if the slave is stuck in place or the rod in the master is not going into the cylinder. You're right, a $140 piece is now in question of being serviceable. The clutch arm as viewed through the slave cyl hole, appears dropped a little. I'm guessing this is OK..?? It's dark thirty time now so this will have to wait until tomorrow. I will continue to search through the forum for any ideas. This was not supposed to be a difficult project.
I'm going to guess defective at this point. :-/ Return for exchange... it shouldn't bind up like that (and probably what caused it to bend in the first place).

The other person talking of refilling the old clutch, AFAIK the saturn clutch unit is considered non serviceable, nonbleedable and similar so I don't know if that's recommended necessarily. Someone like OldNuc would have a more informed opinion than me though.

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Old 03-01-2012, 09:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by brokendown View Post
I

The other person talking of refilling the old clutch, AFAIK the saturn clutch unit is considered non serviceable, nonbleedable and similar so I don't know if that's recommended necessarily. Someone like OldNuc would have a more informed opinion than me though.

recommended and what works are two different things.
im not the first or the last to do it and it works fine if the seals arent ruined.

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Old 03-01-2012, 10:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

If the pushrod and piston are in the bottom of the bell housing they need to come out. Take the dust shield off and you can retrieve them.

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Old 03-02-2012, 02:01 AM   #14
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1996 SW2
Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

What did the "wire" test indicate, on the _old_ hydraulic system?

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Old 03-02-2012, 05:42 PM   #15
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Madpogue, where is this 'wire test' thread? If in the library, under what headline? Meanwhile, I will search for the test. Thanks - Ed

...
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Old 03-02-2012, 06:11 PM   #16
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Madpogue - can't do the wire test since the master cyl will not press in. The feel is as if the master cyl is locked in the undepressed condition. If I take off the dust cover from the bottom will I be able to see the slave piston and clutch fork? It was a b1tch to get the slave cyl back into it's position after the "hold plastic thingy" broke that holds the slave rod in when new. What is the round disc shaped thing between the master and slave cyl and what does it do?
With the slave back in it's hole could the slave rod be not hitting the dimple in the clutch arm? Rain and cold today, will be back on project soon I hope. Thanks everyone for input. Will post progress or set backs. Ed

...
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

The question was about the old hydraulic system. Evidently you didn't do the "wire" test on it. Which means your old hydraulics might have been fine, and the original problem may be the pressure plate fingers. So you may now have a pressure plate problem and defective hydraulics. If you haven't stored the old hydraulic system with the slave above the master, you could try reinstalling it (as said, be VERY careful removing the slave that's in there now) and doing the wire test.

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Old 03-13-2012, 12:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Replaced clutch hydraulics now clutch pedal won't depress - Help

Well guy's, some progress but my wagon is still up on ramps. I returned the "defective" new hydraulis assembly and decided to run the wire test with my old hydraulics. Have gone through much "learning" about the master / slave hydraulics and what I've found out is ::: I believe my slave push rod was going across the top of the clutch fork. When the slave push rod is extended the master cylinder push rod cannot be pushed into the master cylinder. Know for a fact - with complete assembly removed and slave push rod extended master cannot be depressed. Push the slave rod back into cyl and then the master rod can be pushed in. ::: Trying the wire test was a hoot. with the old unit in place and having a really soft clutch I knew my slave push rod was in the dimple of the clutch fork. With a stiff wire about 9 or 10 inches long i probed for the clutch fork and wire would go in 5 or 6 inches but no movement on the wire. Many attempts and nothing. I removed the slave and with a mirror and light I determined I had been pushing wire across top of fork. The fork is down somewhat and with slave removed I see where to insert wire to touch fork. Wire only goes in about 2 inches to touch fork. My lesson learned : even a blind squirrel finds a nut once and a while. Now I'm ready for an actual wire test. Every thing back together and the wire test shows a smiddgen over a quarter of an inch travel. I understand this should be about 7/16 inch (.44 in). Now my question is back to first test to run - how far down does the clutch pedal travel. On mine it's appx 5 to 5 1/8 inches. Could my pedal need more travel? It bottoms out on the switch that must me depressed for starting (nothing looks out of place, just don't hav 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 inches of travel on pedal). I have ordered a new hydraulic assembly and just recieved my new LUK clutch kit (disc, pressure plate, throwout bearing and alignment tool) so when all is said and done I still feel uneasy about the clutch pedal travel being less than suggested. Remember, this little SW2 hasn't been in my driveway but a short time so I have no feel what was going wrong. Bought it this way. As I said, I will keep you posted, just be a while between posts. I cannot find the "dust cover" on the bottom of the bell housing. I understand that it's a three bolt removal deal but what or where am I missing it? Can the clutch fork be seen from below if or when I find the dust shield? Here I go feeling like that squirrel again
Thanks guy's. Ed

...
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1996 SW2, My second Saturn

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