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Old 11-15-2015, 09:53 PM   #1
Deoxyrybose
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Default Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

I had an oil leak, and was irresponsible about it. Drove the car without oil and spun some bearings. So I purchased a crank, ground, polished with oversized bearings. Spent four days doing the swap.

Engine started right up, but had a slightly rough idle/skip. Nothing too bad, but clearly there. It got a bit worse as it warmed up, and would shudder at stoplights. I drove the car for about a week and twice the oil light came on at startup... Then went out within a minute. After a week of driving the oil light came on, and stayed on. Havent driven since.

Notes: theres also what sounds like chain slap under the timing cover. I removed the timing cover today and chain seems tight... Tensioner bolts may not have been torqued properly, but they were at least snugged up...

Any ideas?
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Old 11-15-2015, 10:18 PM   #2
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

The scrap metal you did not get out of there has destroyed the oil pump recess in the timing cover, chain guides, oil pump, and pump cover. New timing cover and oil pump, pump cover and complete timing set and several new filters changed weekly. I would also pull pan and shovel it out as well.
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Old 11-15-2015, 11:22 PM   #3
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

So all that circulating metal wore it away over that weeks time? Is there a way to verify this? Or is it pretty much the only explanation?
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Old 11-16-2015, 12:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

Maybe not the only explanation, but sure most likely. With low oil, there may also be damage to the pistons/cylinders/rings. I suppose even the whole valve train (cams, lifter, valves) could have been damaged. Was this engine disassembled for inspection after the bearing went, or was just the crank replaced? Didn't R&R of the crank require removal of the timing cover and such?
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:08 AM   #5
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deoxyrybose View Post
So all that circulating metal wore it away over that weeks time? Is there a way to verify this? Or is it pretty much the only explanation?

Takes about 30 seconds to actually destroy it and then several days of circulating metal for it get bad enough the idiot light comes on. Nominal minimum hot idle oil pressure is 13 psi and the light comes on at 3 to 5 psi.

You do not see the inside of the pump cavity when JUST the TC is pulled. Then you have to actually know what you are looking for as it may not be obvious.
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:13 AM   #6
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

Ok, that makes sense.

Billr: no I simply threw the new crank and bearings in, didnt check anything else. I didnt expect longevity out of this car, but i did expect more than a week lol and yes the timing cover came off during the repair.

Thanks guys
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:31 AM   #7
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

We know the TC and usually the rear seal carrier has to come off along with more parts to get the crank out. The issue is that there is no easy way to flush the main oil galleries after this happens. The chunks weigh enough that they do not end up in the lifters or under the cam lobes etc but they do end up in the oil pump and usually on the guides.

At this point the engine comes out and is completely disassembled to PROPERLY measure and determine condition. It may not be scrap metal but you really do not know until it is apart and someone who has seen more than 1 of these engines apart looks at it. Usually the mechanical damage is confined to the items I listed along with the new crank.

You have run this engine at least 2 times with inadequate oil.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

So replacing the timing cover and oil pump today, followed by engine oil and filter flushes wont do the trick?

AND my new crank/bearings are trashed...?
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:41 PM   #9
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

If you didn't spend a few bucks to replace things like your oil pump, and front and rear main seals I have to scratch my head a bit.. those are things that really suck to do in car.. would have made your life so much easier had you done those. Note to people reading this learn from his misery and replace those tough to get at parts while you're in there... not having the money now sucks but having your car down later after you've done all this work sucks more.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

I did the front and rear seals, but oil pump... Well honestly i just didnt know :/ still new to this reletively, and always learning. Doing oil pump in car isnt bad. Got a $30 used timing cover and ordered an oil pump.

NEW FINDING:

Timing cover (inside on left toward the bottom) has a groove cut into it. Thats where my chain slap was. The chain is shiny on the outside edge confirming. So perhaps the tensioner is bad, allowing slack and... being hydraulic, losing oil pressure? God i hope so.
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Old 11-17-2015, 01:05 AM   #11
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

Do you understand that we are telling you that there is junk now in the lube passages; that just replacing the pump and cover is not likely to ensure the engine is going to keep running for much longer? It's your call, of course, but I hate to see you wasting the cost of a pump and cover.
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Old 11-17-2015, 01:15 AM   #12
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deoxyrybose View Post
I did the front and rear seals, but oil pump... Well honestly i just didnt know :/ still new to this reletively, and always learning. Doing oil pump in car isnt bad. Got a $30 used timing cover and ordered an oil pump.

NEW FINDING:

Timing cover (inside on left toward the bottom) has a groove cut into it. Thats where my chain slap was. The chain is shiny on the outside edge confirming. So perhaps the tensioner is bad, allowing slack and... being hydraulic, losing oil pressure? God i hope so.
The tensioner has mechanical ratchet to prevent retraction. The timing set(all of it) is junk. Your easy fix is a good used engine. You have a bunch of salvageable parts there but it will not run long and is way past bubble gumming back together.
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Old 11-21-2015, 11:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

Update:

My timing stuff came in today, i pulled the tensioner off my car and found a fricken rock in the oil port -.- so the rock completely occluded the oil flow, which caused a loose chain, and the chain dug into the timing cover. It chewed up a pinhole on the oil pump housing plate. Not sure the low pressure correlation yet but thats where im at so far.

Im sure the rock didnt flow through the sump, it must have stuck in there working in my uncles sandy garage. At some point it mustve contacted the floor.

#notreplacingmyengine

;p
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Old 11-21-2015, 01:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

Lovely...
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Old 11-21-2015, 02:34 PM   #15
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

So, which are you going to do: disassemble the whole engine for cleaning, inspection, and parts-replacement as-needed, or replace with another engine?
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Old 11-21-2015, 04:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

Neither. Its not necessary. The motor ran with knock for a week, and with a new crank and bearings for a week. There is metal, but micro shavings, like glitter. And theyve been circulating without incident for weeks, clearly if anything were to get caught in an oil passage it WOULD HAVE by now. The challenge im facing is simply removing the micro particles. Oil changes will remove it. I highly doubt bearing damage, and if there is any i guarantee its simply accelerated WEAR not damage given the small particle size. Im pretty dissapointed in the negativity here, so Im not interested in any more "advice" because clearly nobody else can provide realistic alternatives. Thanks though. Ill post back when i get the parts back together and im back on my way for another 100k miles.
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

Well, I'm sorry to have disappointed you, that certainly isn't my desire or intention. Honestly, what you perceive as "negativity" is what I consider reality. Your original concern was the rough idle and oil light coming on soon after the crank was replaced. The only sure fix for the oil pressure is what we were describing, there is no alternative. I'm not faulting you for deciding to ignore the contamination issue and hope for the best, I have done similar at times, but it is hardly a true fix, "reasonable" or otherwise. I wish you the best of luck, but stand by my advice; it was intended to help you with a repair, not a "Hail Mary" play.
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Old 11-21-2015, 09:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

Deoxyrybose, for the most part, members here try to share suggestions and advice to help. Unfortunately, there are members using fear mongering in unconstructive ways that detract from the majority of those with well meaning attitudes.

As to metal shavings, these should have been obvious when dropping the oil pan and most of it should have been captured by the oil filter. A rock in the oil port? Can you explain in detail? Did it find its way from the oil pump and somehow got past the oil pick up screen? I would imagine this piece had to smaller than the oil screen.
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Old 11-22-2015, 12:38 AM   #19
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

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Deoxyrybose, for the most part, members here try to share suggestions and advice to help. Unfortunately, there are members using fear mongering in unconstructive ways that detract from the majority of those with well meaning attitudes.

As to metal shavings, these should have been obvious when dropping the oil pan and most of it should have been captured by the oil filter. A rock in the oil port? Can you explain in detail? Did it find its way from the oil pump and somehow got past the oil pick up screen? I would imagine this piece had to smaller than the oil screen.
I appreciate you not being one of the unconstructives.

Since my bearings were pretty far gone, there were shavings in the pan, but I cleaned the pan when I replaced the whole crankshaft. As for the oil port, i cant be 100% it was a rock, but when I pulled the tensioner today i turned it over and saw the port was completely covered. I took a pick tool and pryed a little black chunk of SOMETHING out of it. It was roundish with rough edges and hard. For size, it perfectly filled the oil port.I unfortunately quickly dropped it into the grass never to be seen again before I could examine it further.

Could it have gone through the pick up screen? Its possible. I had the whole engine apart, so the rock could have gotten in there in a lot of ways. A piece touched the dirty concrete floor or a shop rag i dropped then brushed parts off with.

So my tensioner and chain slap issue seems to be solved. Now the oil pressure. Theres a good chance metal could have destroyed the pump. I drove the car for weeks with the rod knock, when the metal was in chunks floating around. My guess is thats when the real damage was done, and it was probably on it way out before I so absent mindedly put it back on the fresh build. Tomorrow i put it all back together, do an oil change (ill check the metal situation), and see where we are!
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Old 11-22-2015, 01:53 AM   #20
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Default Re: Oil light/rough idle after rebuild

That rock that you described as black may not be a rock at all and more likely black carbon from overheating when the plain bearings cooked, leaving bearing shavings all over the engine bottom. Black carbon is burned oil and fuel that coats the entire intake manifold and valves as crankcase gases from engine blowby is created. This blowby gas is recirculated thru the pcv valve as part of emissions so any time an engine overheats loosens these deposits anywhere and simply winds up in the oil pan. What isn't sucked thru the oil pick up screen to be captured by the oil filter is left in the pan. Slivers, shavings of bearing material is washed off to mix with oil. The oil filter removes 100% of crap so its the only protection when something goes wrong like crank bearing failure from entering the oil galleries. All you can do is use oil and filter after repairs and maybe drain the oil for inspection of any more bearing particles before reusing oil - oil with less than a thousand miles on it. Its not practical to throw away perfectly good oil that doesn't show any metal from this engine so checking oil soon after a rebuild may be in your best interest.

As to the oil light, if the oil light doesn't turn off after starting, this may be just a worn out oil sending unit. The only way to know is to remove it and connect an oil pressure gauge to see actual pressures otherwise a new sending unit is the easy way to go.
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