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Old 04-13-2006, 01:10 PM   #81
cheapybob
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjo
Wow. Don't get too overzealous - I have a feeling that it might turn into a "too much of a good thing is fatal" situation. Your fuel injectors can't go south in this situation or bad things might happen. The hotter your intake air, the more important it is for your injectors to be working PERFECTLY.

Someone (probably me) needs to work out some thermodynamic equations to find out how hot the isothermal reaction is inside the combustion chamber.
My automotive engineer friend (who works on fuel/ignition pcm systems) said to keep it under 250 degrees, so I'm trying for 220 or so normally, figuring it might get hotter in the summer heat. I think his max 250 number was based on whether the plastic parts could handle the temp. I believe he expected the ignition system to retard if the heat got to causing detonation, which I've yet to see since the advance is still high 30's with 87 octane. I may not get my 220 anyway. My intake is looking more like a vacuum cleaner nozzle trying to suck the hot air off the manifold, LOL.

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Old 04-13-2006, 01:24 PM   #82
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapybob
Sweet, thanks. I didn't realize that ThinkGeek would carry something like that. If I was rich, I'd probably buy at least half of the products they sell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapybob
you just plug the 2 ends of the resistor into the connector instead of plugging in the sensor. again, I don't think its a great way to cause the engine mgmt system to inject less fuel because it will run lean as a result.
There we go, that's what I was looking for. I figured that was how you connected it, but I wanted to make sure.

If I were to do this, I would probably use a wide-band O2 sensor to make sure I was running within a safe range. That's still a long way off though... I have other budget priorities at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanleyr
I have respect for him after some correspondence even though I haven't used his products.

However, stay away from Hydro-Gen and all those you sell it on Ebay. They are a rip off. Know 2nd hand that they do not honor their "Iron Clad Warranty" http://www.savefuel.ca/
Thanks for the info. I had never even heard of such a product before, so I honestly thought it was another scam at first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanleyr
Thanks for the link.
No problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapybob
Some of you people are so full of crap! When's the last time you had a flat that wasn't caused by a nail or screw in the tire?

My 2001 BMW M Roadster didn't come with a spare, and there was no place to put one. It came with a little pump, and had tire pressure monitors, thats all. Illegal my butt!
The only flat tire I've ever had was due to a bad seal. I was honestly shocked when I first read that BMW did not include spare tires with those cars. I'm not so sure how useful a spare tire is overall, but it's still a good idea to have either AAA or friends/family with nothing better to do than to pick you up on the side of the highway.

...
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Last edited by DTDSasquatch; 04-13-2006 at 01:30 PM..

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Old 04-13-2006, 02:05 PM   #83
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTDSasquatch
The only flat tire I've ever had was due to a bad seal. I was honestly shocked when I first read that BMW did not include spare tires with those cars. I'm not so sure how useful a spare tire is overall, but it's still a good idea to have either AAA or friends/family with nothing better to do than to pick you up on the side of the highway.
I found it out when the pressure monitor went off and found a nail in the rear tire. I plugged it with my little plug kit, and pumped her back up. Being a racer, I have those kind of things around.

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Old 04-13-2006, 02:23 PM   #84
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

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Originally Posted by cheapybob
Some of you people are so full of crap! When's the last time you had a flat that wasn't caused by a nail or screw in the tire?
Going from memory, times I had to put on a spare:
* Three different internal belt separations/shifts (all covered by pro rata warranty, fortunately)
* Overheated a snow tire (buddy who lent me the car didn't tell me he had snow tires on in JUNE!); pretty-much shredded the tire
* Run up curb by idiot who left the scene, bent rim
* Broken wine bottle at curb when parking, slashed sidewall
I used to live in Detroit, where I swear they used to fill potholes by letting Pontiac LeManses (the Korean ones) fall into them. Not exactly easy on tires. Now I live in one of the most construction-intensive cities in the country (skyline hasn't been without a const. crane since about '96). Not a single screw or nail (or the like) puncture in 25-ish years.

Quote:
My 2001 BMW M Roadster didn't come with a spare, and there was no place to put one. It came with a little pump, and had tire pressure monitors, thats all. Illegal my butt!
Which means you weren't driving it without the factory-installed safety equipment (which is how most states' uniform vehicle codes read). Granted, getting busted for this would be exceedingly unlikely.

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Old 04-13-2006, 07:49 PM   #85
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Did the same test trip with 195 thermostat and hood on hot air intake which gave a steady 200 water temp and 204 intake air temp. was 179 water and 121 intake air before.

stock trip 40.4 mpg
with preheated insulated airbox 46.8 mpg
with 195 thermo and better intake setup 51.3 mpg

one last mod to go... preheated fuel. added the tubing wound around the upper rad hose and insulated, but not hooked up yet.

running fine. harder to start when warm since airbox mod

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Old 04-13-2006, 07:53 PM   #86
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Harder to start when warm (engine) since airbox mod? What about starting a cold engine with the IAT resistor mod? Or did we cover this about 5,000 posts ago?

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Old 04-13-2006, 08:00 PM   #87
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

What's happening, IMO, is that the temp sensor is way down at the airbox and the air up by the throttle body has cooled while the car was sitting. So it thinks its getting hot air, but instead its cooled, and so the mixture is lean till hotter air from the airbox gets up to the engine. I could insulate the tube from the airbox to throttle body, but I'm out of insulating tape for now. Its no big deal. Just takes 15 seconds to start when still warm.

PS: for anyone wondering, the difference between the 53 the other day and 51.3 today says I can drive more efficiently than the cruise control.

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Old 04-14-2006, 12:03 AM   #88
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

bob, when you find the optimum resistor value let me know, i'm interested in what i can do with a DOHC car as far as MPG values go. also, i have noticed two or three times you mention you race cars, whatcha got? we can take that to PM if you want, to keep this on topic here.

...
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Old 04-14-2006, 06:40 AM   #89
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapybob
one last mod to go... preheated fuel. added the tubing wound around the upper rad hose and insulated, but not hooked up yet.
Does your car have a fuel return line? If so, you may have to cool the fuel before it returns to the tank because I heard that the gas in the tank will heat up and expand causing the tank to bulge.

BTW, to check if your HAI IS causing engine wear send an oil sample out for an analysis. As always, good luck.

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Old 04-14-2006, 09:31 AM   #90
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjo
Does your car have a fuel return line? If so, you may have to cool the fuel before it returns to the tank because I heard that the gas in the tank will heat up and expand causing the tank to bulge.
That's a good thought provoking statement.

As far as I know, the S series had two types of fuel delivery systems: one with the return line and one that’s returnless.

I have the one with the return line. This is my experience with the fuel delivery and vapor recovery system of my particular SL2:

If the fuel tank experiences expansion because of rising ambient temperatures, the system is designed to vent through the purge canister if the engine is off. The activated carbon/charcoal will trap all the hydrocarbons, and the excess pressure will be vented to atmosphere, scrubbed and dooty-free...

If however, the engine is running and the vehicle is in motion, then the fuel vapors will be sucked into the intake manifold and burned during the combustion process. To prevent the tank pressure from going into a negative and imploding during this process, the same canister vent that keeps the fuel tank from pressurizing now acts as a path for fresh air to be drawn into and mixed with the fuel vapor line going to the intake manifold. This prevents a large vacuum from developing in the fuel vapor line. So, in essence, the fuel tank stays relatively neutral with respect to pressure changes.

Now if you heat the liquid fuel line and return it to the tank, there will be some expansion of the liquid in the tank. This will force more vapor to the purge canister and the process described in the paragraph above will take place. Still, the tank pressure will stay relatively neutral. I think the only way the tank could experience positive pressure would be when the fuel tank was already full to the top of the filler neck because of excessive “topping off” at the pump, and the liquid fuel escapes through the vent line to flood the purge canister, yielding a slightly positive pressure - enough to push the liquid out of the canister and stink up the whole garage. Or the purge canister vent/fresh air make up port was somehow blocked from a little critter - then big pressure changes develop.

As for the possibility of flooding the canister, I would think some time would have to pass before enough heat transfer could occur from a fuel line heating system. So the fuel level in the tank would have dropped sufficiently to prevent liquid fuel from going overboard – even at 51.2 MPG.... oops, I mean 53.4mpg at 60 mph!

As for the returnless system, I can’t speak out because I am not familiar with that system.

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Old 04-14-2006, 10:14 AM   #91
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Quote:
Originally Posted by scsomike
bob, when you find the optimum resistor value let me know, i'm interested in what i can do with a DOHC car as far as MPG values go. also, i have noticed two or three times you mention you race cars, whatcha got? we can take that to PM if you want, to keep this on topic here.
Well, I'd have to say I don't think a particular resistor value is really the best answer. The 150 ohms works as far as increasing fuel economy in combo with the hot air intake, but it risks running the thing too lean. I like the idea of getting the actual temp higher and letting GM's code do what its designed to do.

I have a Road Race V8 Firebird. It gets 5.5 mpg on the track and gets up over 130 mph very quickly. I only race when I'm feeling flush with money, LOL.

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Old 04-14-2006, 10:23 AM   #92
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjo
Does your car have a fuel return line? If so, you may have to cool the fuel before it returns to the tank because I heard that the gas in the tank will heat up and expand causing the tank to bulge.

BTW, to check if your HAI IS causing engine wear send an oil sample out for an analysis. As always, good luck.
I don't think I'm going to worry about the oil. It costs about $30 or $40 to have it analyzed, which is way too much, IMO. If it was $5 or $10 I might, but its not.

I'm not trying to boil it, just warm it to 150 or so. The fuel return line is metal so should dissipate a lot of the heat off on the way back to the tank. diamondlarry was having problems if it got too hot, so I'll try to avoid that mistake. It might turn out his hard starting was caused by his 111 ohm resistor IAT substitute.

Yes, you have to drive a lot of mile to make it worth stopping for gas, LOL.

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Old 04-14-2006, 10:37 AM   #93
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

LT1? LS1? or just a good old 350 4bolt main with a carb? i come from the Fbody grounds myself.

would you not run a risk of vapor lock if you heat the fuel or if you return hot fuel to the fuel tank?

...
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Old 04-14-2006, 10:49 AM   #94
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Quote:
Originally Posted by scsomike
LT1? LS1? or just a good old 350 4bolt main with a carb? i come from the Fbody grounds myself.

would you not run a risk of vapor lock if you heat the fuel or if you return hot fuel to the fuel tank?
The race car is an LT1. I also have an LS1 show car, since you seem to know the difference.

I don't know anything about vapor lock. I'd suspect that it might be why I was told to try not to heat the fuel too hot.

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Old 04-14-2006, 11:14 AM   #95
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

i also come from the VW/Porsche line and i know early cars with fuel pumps mounted near the engine bay were horrible about getting vapor lock, i'm not sure what advances in technology have done for this, but their fix in the 70's was to move the pump location, that was of course before the days of in-tank pumps.
My 95 Z28 was the LT1, 6 speed. i HATE optisparks! another great innovation from GM!

...
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:11 PM   #96
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Quote:
Originally Posted by scsomike
i also come from the VW/Porsche line and i know early cars with fuel pumps mounted near the engine bay were horrible about getting vapor lock, i'm not sure what advances in technology have done for this, but their fix in the 70's was to move the pump location, that was of course before the days of in-tank pumps.
My 95 Z28 was the LT1, 6 speed. i HATE optisparks! another great innovation from GM!
Yup, Opti*CRAP* would be a more appropriate name for it. I wonder how many more customers GM send to the Japanese and Germans with that imfamous design. And then to continue it for 4 long years of production knowing it was trouble. Such a shame. Good car otherwise. My LS1 gets 28 mpg out on the road at 70 mph. Only been to the shop once since 98 (for a headlight motor).

The Saturn is an intank design, I think. This whole thing is a game of pushing things to their limits and knowing to back off when you've gone too far. Interesting that the Saturn's EPA rating was only 37 mpg and I'm up over 50 doing 65 mph. GM could have done better for $20 max worth of parts at their cost. But did they have a reason to at the time? Everybody thought the SOHC's were dogs. They wanted more power. So GM gave them power with the ECO. Now gas goes up, so now people want economy again. GM doesn't have anything better that 34 mpg highway made in north America. They always seem to be making the car you wanted 5 or 10 years before.

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Old 04-14-2006, 12:14 PM   #97
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

i actually thought about buying a bunch of econoboxes and starting a company called Economy Beaters, just buying and selling them. then i'll horde all of the SUV's for when the prices go back up

...
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:16 PM   #98
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapybob
Now gas goes up, so now people want economy again. GM doesn't have anything better that 34 mpg highway made in north America. They always seem to be making the car you wanted 5 or 10 years before.
I was reading Consumer Reports, Car Buying Guide issue the other day and was appalled by the low MPG that these 2006 models get. Good thing my 2002 SC2 will be better than new when I get it back next week! Only Honda and Toyota produce vehicles with the fuel economy that I'm looking for right now!

Eric & Genieve
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2006 VUE 5-spd 0.9k miles

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Old 04-14-2006, 12:23 PM   #99
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

well i will say that a friend of mine currently has a 2004 VW Jetta TDI that consistantly gets 54mpg. there's been a lot of intrest in older diesel cars here lately.

...
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:26 PM   #100
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Default Re: My 1997 SC1 got 53.4 mpg at steady 60 mph on the expressway

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well i will say that a friend of mine currently has a 2004 VW Jetta TDI that consistantly gets 54mpg. there's been a lot of intrest in older diesel cars here lately.
Yeah, but diesel fuel is 10 or 15% more than gasoline, and you don't find diesels for cheap.

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