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Old 02-02-2010, 06:23 PM   #1
Mgg4591
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Default "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

So I brought my SL2 to the only GM dealer near me to see if they can tell me why my car is getting miserable gas mileage. I dropped the car off yesterday and picked it up today. The mechanic said the injectors are working correctly and the car is not throwing any codes. He also said the car runs perfectly and is not blowing black smoke, so there is really no explanation for why i am getting 12 miles per gallon.

He said it could just be the way the car runs. He also said "It's a high mileage car," at 84,400k, "and it probably doesn't have the compression it use to have."

What do you guys think about this?

Last edited by Mgg4591; 02-02-2010 at 06:25 PM.. Reason: saturn sl2 mpg compression fuel consumption

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Old 02-02-2010, 07:03 PM   #2
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1996 SW2
Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

For about $10 you can find out for yourself. Buy the cheapo Harbor Freight compression tester and measure it. Well, a little more than $10 if you don't already have a spark plug socket. For that matter, you could probably borrow a compression tester, and the socket, from your local AutoZone / O'Reilly (or whatever). 84,000 km is by no means "high mileage". Even if you mean 84,000 miles, unless it's been neglected/abused (which is not unimaginable), it has more than enough life left in it.

That mechanic's comment reflects more on the mechanic than on the car. Dealership service departments are "pediatricians", geared to working on relatively new cars still in production. Our cars are "vintage" in their eyes, and are better off in the hands of a well-reputed local independent mechanic (or your own hands).

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Old 02-02-2010, 07:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

+1 on the compression tester from HF. I have one and it works all right.
I think that's bull crap. my 1996 SW2 has 184,000 miles on it and it gets 29-32 around town. Maybe a tune-up is in order? new plugs (make sure to use NGK), wires, clean out the throttle body, run some sea foam through the intake, new coil pack perhaps?

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Old 02-02-2010, 07:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

1999 Sl2. A tune up has been done complete with NGK plugs and wires as well as a slew of other parts pertaining to Gas mileage. I don't know why anyone can't find a thing wrong with it. Btw the car has 84,000 miles, my mistake. But still, it sucks driving a 4 cylinder with the gas mileage of an 8 cylinder. I should of just bought a hummer or something if I knew I was gonna get this gas mileage. At least then I would look cool getting bad gas mileage and have the power to go along with it.

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Old 02-02-2010, 08:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

you cannot discuss mpgs w/o discussing your driving habits and type of commute.
hwy or local?
fast or slow?
short or long?
any idling?
fast starts?
run to redline much?

when a car is mechanically sound (no dragging brakes, no bad plugs, etc) the largest contributor to mpgs is driving style.

...
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

Quote:
Originally Posted by twosaturns View Post
you cannot discuss mpgs w/o discussing your driving habits and type of commute.
hwy or local?
fast or slow?
short or long?
any idling?
fast starts?
run to redline much?

when a car is mechanically sound (no dragging brakes, no bad plugs, etc) the largest contributor to mpgs is driving style.
I'm driving a mix of highway and local. I got a remote start installed and always remote start it at least 15 minutes before i drive off during the winter. I keep the rpms under 3,000 and don't redline at all. I'd say my average speed is 40mph.

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Old 02-02-2010, 09:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

1st of all, 15 min warm up is a huge waste of gas. all you need is a minute. it'll get up to temp quicker dring that just sitting there.
what does your temp gauge read? have you had your ECTS and t-stat changed?
also, are you you are calculating your mpgs properly? only one way to do it right:
get gas
reset trip odometer
run down almost to empty
divide miles driven by how many gallons it takes to fill up again

one last thing: winter blend gas. that hurts mpgs by a few.

...
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

Unlikely that the 15 minute warm-up time alone is the problem. I've always let my cars idle for about 10 minutes first thing in the morning.

...
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

Quote:
Originally Posted by twosaturns View Post
1st of all, 15 min warm up is a huge waste of gas. all you need is a minute. it'll get up to temp quicker dring that just sitting there.
what does your temp gauge read? have you had your ECTS and t-stat changed?
also, are you you are calculating your mpgs properly? only one way to do it right:
get gas
reset trip odometer
run down almost to empty
divide miles driven by how many gallons it takes to fill up again

one last thing: winter blend gas. that hurts mpgs by a few.
I calculate my mpgs like you said, miles driven/gallons used. Here is the list of things i have replaced:

Battery(Died)
Air Filter
EGR Valve
PCV Valve
NGK Plugs and Wires
Control Module(Died)
Starter(Died)
WIX #33731 Fuel Filter/Regulator
ECTS and Connector
AIT Sensor and Connector
MAP Sensor
Front Manifold Oxygen Sensor, OEM
Thermostat
Valve Cover Gasket(some oil in the wells)
Cleaned the Throttle Body(was not very dirty)

The valve body was also replaced due to reverse slam by the same GM dealer i brought the car to yesterday. It was a warranty job and was done back in June 2009. I bought the car April 2009. The car has been getting the same gas mileage since day one of my ownership.

The exhaust pipe behind the cat was also replace via warranty due to a rust hole at the first bend behind the cat.

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Old 02-02-2010, 10:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

Where did you buy the car from? You should talk to the previous owner to find what they did to screw up your MPG before you got it. a drop in gas mileage isn't going to happen over night with any type of reasonable driving, who ever had it before you had to of noticed a drop in mpg that huge. Rather they did something to it or something broke but either way knowing how many miles was on the thing when it went south would be helpful.

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Old 02-02-2010, 10:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperCujo View Post
Where did you buy the car from? You should talk to the previous owner to find what they did to screw up your MPG before you got it. a drop in gas mileage isn't going to happen over night with any type of reasonable driving, who ever had it before you had to of noticed a drop in mpg that huge. Rather they did something to it or something broke but either way knowing how many miles was on the thing when it went south would be helpful.
I bought it from the Manfredi Auto Group Pre-owned car lot. Heres there website. http://www.manfrediauto.com/

The car was probably a trade in so i have no idea who the previous owner was. The carfax did check out, but i'm gonna take another look at it tomorrow.

Also when i got it, it had a few parking stickers for my current college on the rear window as well as some tints, so it was most likley owned by a college student.

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Old 02-03-2010, 10:05 AM   #12
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

It just boggles my mind that a mechanic was paid to check MPG issues and did not check your compression, especially after not finding any other issues, and telling you "it probably doesn't ahve the compression it used to"

You'd notice a loss of compression if it was significant, as you'd notice the loss of power (or vibration, it was just one cylinder)

The OP has done a lot of work/troubleshooting. Only things left I can think of is that there might be an obstruction in the exhaust (feel for exhaust volume / pressure at the tail pipe, check visually for red hot catalytic converter), auto trans slippiing or not locking up (check rpm at each shift point/speed), and at one point there was mention of an odd smell, possibly gas, that was not resolved.

With an auto trans, even with warming up and city only driving, I'd expect 20~25 mpg. City only in my v6 minivan and v6 Taurus, both auto trans, ran 17~20 mpg

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Old 02-03-2010, 10:45 AM   #13
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

what about the o2 sensors? brand of gas? spark plug wires is the first thing i look at...

...
now with problems and getting a newer car but not a saturn :(
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Old 02-03-2010, 10:54 AM   #14
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

The problem with cars with computers is that the computer is in control of the flow of fuel.

This means to find problems with poor gas mileage you have to take the computer into consideration.

This means the first step is to check the engine with an OBD-II scanner which reads live data.

Is the O2 sensor cycling properly ?
Is the MAP sensor reading correctly at idle ?
What are the fuel trims ?
What temperature is the ECTS and AIT sensors reading ?

Just because you replace a sensor does not mean they are working correctly.
A poor ground wire for example can throw a number of sensors out of whack.

Sensors are dependent upon the wiring so that has to be taken into consideration.

Some other things to check:

Remove the MAP sensor and clean the hole it connects to with carb cleaner.
It gets pretty dirty in there and it effects how the MAP sensor works.

Double check for vacuum leaks. They will skew the MAP sensor readings. An OBD-II scanner will tell you if the sensor is reading properly and that can also be double checked with a vacuum gauge.

I would check the vacuum with a vacuum gauge to see if it is within specs.

One place you can get a vacuum leak is the line that goes to the fuel vapor solenoid on the back side of the engine. If oil drips down there when you add oil it makes the rubber connector slick and it can easily slip off. Also if you have problems in the power brake booster it can effect the vacuum (there is a big vacuum line from the back side of the intake manifold which goes to the brake booster).

Has the fuel pressure been tested to see if it is within specs ?

You may want to disconnect the ground wires and clean them real good and the bolt they connect to.

There is a gound in the front of the engine above the coils and one on the back side underneath the intake manifold near cylinder #4 (at least thats where they are on my 96 SL2).

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Old 02-03-2010, 11:40 AM   #15
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
It just boggles my mind that a mechanic was paid to check MPG issues and did not check your compression, especially after not finding any other issues, and telling you "it probably doesn't ahve the compression it used to"

Or while it was hooked up to the scanner to see if it had codes, compare the engine temperature reading agianst what the actual temp should be.

A Mazda dealership did this with a friend. She was getting terrible gas milage and the dealer couldnt figure it out. I connected my OBDII scanner to it and it was reading -42 degrees on a 90 degree day after driving the car over an hour. Changed the sensor and all was good.

...
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:53 AM   #16
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

Those don't look like stock rims. Is your outer tire diameter the same as stock? If not your odo ain't reading right.....

And +1 on your remote start / 15 minute thing. That's nutty. Try 2 minutes.

Did the tech ever plug the car in and verify that it goes into closed loop running mode?

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Old 02-03-2010, 12:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
Those don't look like stock rims. Is your outer tire diameter the same as stock? If not your odo ain't reading right.....
And if it's off, it by an insignificant amount.

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Old 02-03-2010, 01:03 PM   #18
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
Those don't look like stock rims. Is your outer tire diameter the same as stock? If not your odo ain't reading right.....

And +1 on your remote start / 15 minute thing. That's nutty. Try 2 minutes.

Did the tech ever plug the car in and verify that it goes into closed loop running mode?
The rims are after market but they are exactly the same size. I kept the tires because they were new, and had them put on a new set of rims, mounted and balanced. This was done in August 2009. I've been getting the same gas mileage with the stock alloy rims as well. I replaced them because they had some serious curb rash from the previous owner.

As far as the exhaust goes, i put my hand over the exhaust pipe but it kept getting pushed off by the pressure. I also tested by removing the front 02 sensor. The car drove the same if not worse. So i don't think the cat is clogged. I did however go under the car and tap it with a rubber mallet. I do here a tiny bit of rattling, but it sounds like its coming from the flex pipe.

As for the computer, do you think i should try reprogramming it? I found this video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc0aMxSdat4

Also if it helps, i can make a video of me driving the car around with the camera shot at the rpms. Just so you can see what i see when im driving. Ill post it later.

Last edited by Mgg4591; 02-03-2010 at 01:08 PM..

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Old 02-03-2010, 03:33 PM   #19
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgg4591 View Post
The rims are after market but they are exactly the same size. I kept the tires because they were new, and had them put on a new set of rims, mounted and balanced. This was done in August 2009. I've been getting the same gas mileage with the stock alloy rims as well. I replaced them because they had some serious curb rash from the previous owner.

As far as the exhaust goes, i put my hand over the exhaust pipe but it kept getting pushed off by the pressure. I also tested by removing the front 02 sensor. The car drove the same if not worse. So i don't think the cat is clogged. I did however go under the car and tap it with a rubber mallet. I do here a tiny bit of rattling, but it sounds like its coming from the flex pipe.

As for the computer, do you think i should try reprogramming it? I found this video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc0aMxSdat4

Also if it helps, i can make a video of me driving the car around with the camera shot at the rpms. Just so you can see what i see when im driving. Ill post it later.
Ok here are the two videos i made.

This one is while I'm driving around the neighborhood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JBXacljTck


This one is while driving on the highway at 70mph with cruise on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Ops0pExcA

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Old 02-03-2010, 03:58 PM   #20
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Default Re: "It probably doesn't have the compression it use to have"

About how many miles are you getting from a full tank? Until the needle is at the yellow line or very close to it.

...
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