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Old 10-13-2009, 08:15 PM   #61
OldNuc
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

Quote:
Originally Posted by cboss View Post
Ok, I'll finish taking out the other cylinders.

If I have the block rebored, I assume I will have to get new piston rings.

Where do I buy another piston ?

I should get the cylinder bore gauge tommorrow or in a few days at most and then I will check the cylinders for their wear.

Its kind of expensive getting all the tools, as well as parts (and machine shop work), but once I have them I can rebuild other saturns in the future, as well as my Geo Prism (its got 334,000 miles on it). The Geo has similiar size cylinders as the Saturn so I can even use the hones.

This is definitely a learning experience !!!

I guess when one buys a used car, even if the previous owner says "the engine has been rebuilt", that does not necessarily mean you got a good engine. The real question is "who" rebuilt it and are they good and what did they actually replace or rebuild. IMO, doing a rebuild and not replacing the timing chain on an car with over 100,000 miles is insane.
Step #1 is to completely asses the condition of the parts. Where to get parts is the easy part. It is not usually the local auto parts store either.

Engine holder looks like its doing the job.

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Old 10-13-2009, 08:20 PM   #62
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattelderca View Post
Out of curiosity, take a picture of the other connecting rods before you remove them. Like say looking up at the crankshaft from under the car. I am just wondering if they put the rods in the pistons backwards. Might account for the uneven ridge and cylinder wear.
It looks like the piston may have been dropped before the last install.

I bet they threw on a set of rings without removing teh ridge and the new ring hit the bottom of the ridge and broke the piston. I have seen this before. They could be in backwards also. Take a picture.

Either that or the piston clearance is more than a bit excessive....

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Old 10-13-2009, 08:23 PM   #63
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

When you say the pistons could be backwards, do you mean the head of the piston (the entire piston) or just the rods (if they took the pistons aprt and put them back together again) ?

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Old 10-13-2009, 08:33 PM   #64
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

Quote:
Originally Posted by cboss View Post
OldNuc,

The following tools at Harbor Freight:

Feeler Gauge: Does it have the right sizes for a feeler gauge when needed during rebuilds ?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=32214

This will work.

Which ring compressor would be better to get ?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=97708

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=97709

Neither one. This is the type you want. Look in the local NAPA store first. You only need on that handles 3" to 3.25". http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...oncomprset.php There is minimal tension on the new rings and you can put them in with your fingers if you are careful. So, the pliers type is the easy ones to use. The band clamp is a wonderful way to break a ring or piston.

Which caliper would be better ?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=47256

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=47257

I can buy a cylinder compressor for about $11 at Advance.
I can buy a caliper (Kobalt brand) at Lowes for $30.

The 6" HF caliper is as good as anybody else's. They all probably come from the same Asian plant. Caliper, bore gauge, ring compressor and maybe a set of feelers is about all you really need. A hose clamp can be used as a ring compressor if you are real careful, get the pliers type.

Would they be better quality that the ones at Harbor Freight ?
I doubt it.

As I say, first thing is to asses the condition of the physical remains. The uneven cylinder wear requires an explanation.

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Old 10-13-2009, 08:36 PM   #65
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

If I go by the head of the piston they appear to be installed in the right direction.

Here is a photo of someone elses #1 and #2 cylinders during rebuild and if you go by the notchs on one side for valve spacing (intake side), mine are on the same side.

Here that photo: http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...e/9999/way/asc

My #1 and #2 pistons are in the attachded photo below:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg p11.jpg (105.5 KB, 112 views)

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Old 10-13-2009, 08:46 PM   #66
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

here are two photos of the Piston so you can see the part of the rod too.

Can you tell if anything is off (ie. rod installed backwards) from them ?

Do you need to see a good side shot photo of the piston and rod ?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg p12.jpg (94.0 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg p13.jpg (110.2 KB, 80 views)

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Old 10-13-2009, 08:58 PM   #67
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

OldNuc,

is this what you are refering to (ring compressor at NAPA):

http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...pressor+Pliers


http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...ing+Compressor

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Old 10-13-2009, 10:08 PM   #68
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

Quote:
Originally Posted by cboss View Post
The piston is in the engine the right way. The issue is the rod itself. The rod can be installed in the piston backwards. I wonder if someone did not just throw a set of rings on dirty pistons. The NAPA compressor is expensive. Do some searching and you will find the same design tool at a much lower price.

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Old 10-14-2009, 02:03 AM   #69
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

I purchased the following tools today:

Ring Compressor (style OldNuc recommended):
(got a whole set)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Digital Caliper:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

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Old 10-14-2009, 07:00 AM   #70
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

That looks like it will do the job.

I think you will find the other pistons are worn out. It is normal procedure to replace pistons as a matched set on anything you really want to run right for a while. It also works best to match teh brand of piston and rings so they come from the same manufacturer.

Next thing to do is assess the condition of teh cylinder bores. You measure the diameter at the top, middle and bottom at 90 degree angles, 6 readings total. The 90 degree readings are 1 in line with the crank and the other at 90 degrees to that line. These measurements are more a mater of measurement technique as opposed to absolute accuracy. You also measure the piston diameter about 1" up on teh skirt across the thrust faces.

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Old 10-14-2009, 07:51 AM   #71
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1998 SC1
1996 SL
Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

Quote:
Originally Posted by cboss View Post
here are two photos of the Piston so you can see the part of the rod too.

Can you tell if anything is off (ie. rod installed backwards) from them ?

Do you need to see a good side shot photo of the piston and rod ?
Bottom of the rod is where you want to check, the cap and rod should be marked.
If it wasn't marked before you removed it you should mark them all. You need to mark the rod for cyl number and direction installed, towards the front (passenger side) of the engine. You will want to pay attention to this when reinstalling your pistons onto the rods. Not sure how the Saturn rods are marked if at all.

...
2000 SL1 freebie, my sons DD
1998 SC1 still running, FOR SALE cheap!
1996 SL, GONE but not forgotten
2005 Generic Silver Minivan (Kia Sedona)
2009 Nissan Sentra 2.0S

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Old 10-14-2009, 10:02 AM   #72
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

Proper rod orientation is shown in the FSM. I will scan it of later on today. You orient them by looking.

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Old 10-14-2009, 01:52 PM   #73
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

Any recommendations of a new piston set w/rings combined ?

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Old 10-14-2009, 02:07 PM   #74
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

I posted the links and where to find those items in this thread. http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=141234 It is up towards the early parts of the thread. I have a suspicion that you may be in the "rebuild required" condition. Read the info there and then the actual lookup starts.

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Old 10-14-2009, 05:05 PM   #75
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

I talked to the Head rebuilder today.

He said the head was in good condition. The valve seats had some wear and needed reseating and they have finished all the machining. He said the head surface is perfectly flat so they won't need to resurface it.

They will put it all back together soon and install new valve seals.

The whole job may come out a little lower than I was expecting, so if I can keep the whole head job below $250 I'll be doing good.

The rebuilder has vendors they can buy parts from and I priced a number of them. Most I can get a better price at the autoparts store (ie. gaskets), but they can get a good deal on a set of pistons and rings.

The pistons would be about $107 and the rings less than $50 (matching rings for the pistons). I am still checking out prices.

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Old 10-14-2009, 06:36 PM   #76
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

Did you find the links and part numbers for the FM pistons in the other thread? Those are the ones to use and you have to measure the holes first. The part number is dependent on size. Your rebuilder is always a better source.

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Old 10-14-2009, 07:10 PM   #77
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

If you need a single piston stock size from a 97, the rod had spun bearing. I have one you can have for the cost of shipping.

As for the rod markings and correct directions. Look and the cap end, one side with be stamped. The stamped side is on the intake side

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Old 10-14-2009, 09:04 PM   #78
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

jamie930 I may take you up on that.

I need to pull the rest of the pistons and inspect them first.
The next few days will be raining a lot, so I won't get a lot done on the car.

Do you have a paypal account ?

Thats a good way for me to pay for shipping.

Or maybe send it COD.

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Old 10-14-2009, 09:06 PM   #79
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

What years are compatible with my 96 SL2 ?

Do SOHC engines use the same pistons as well ?

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Old 10-14-2009, 09:31 PM   #80
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Default Re: Elusive P0172 code fixed, now new problem and the Saga continues !

NO. 95 - early 99 for pistons and rings. The Federal Mogul Sealed Power pistons have the improved drain back provisions. Those are the only ones I would put back in there. Did you find the links to the FM site in the thread I referenced?

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