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Old 09-15-2008, 05:25 PM   #1
JerryHughes
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Default A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Hi all,

Well, I'm just about to install a new (rebuilt) air conditioning compressor. The only way I was able to get a 12 month warranty from Pep Boys was to buy a drier too. I told them that the clutch was bad (I hope that's all) so I shouldn't need a new expansion valve and they signed my receipt saying that if the compressor goes bad before the 12 months, they should replace it. But now, looking at all the other conditions to the warranty, if this compressor is bad, it's going to be a tough exchange.

Anyway, a few months ago I replaced my drier because that's where the leak was but the clutch in my compressor went bad since then. But when replacing the drier, I added extra PAG oil to the drier as advised by other members. I know that when I take the old compressor off (and inspect its oil for contamination and hopefully it will be clean) I have to measure that oil and replace it in the new compressor with the same amount of new PAG oil. But since I added new oil to the old drier a few months ago, should I still add more oil to this new drier?

Also, I've been searching for the gap limit that is supposed to be on the A/C clutch but haven't been able to find it. Would anyone know what that gap should be? Thank you for any information.

Jerry

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Old 09-15-2008, 05:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

As to the oil. Replace what ever you pour out of the compressor and put the same as you did last time into the dryer. I suspect since you used the A/C code that fdryer will be along shortly.

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Old 09-15-2008, 05:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Answer to second part of your question.

Check to make sure clutch clearance is 0.5 mm-0.7 mm (0.018 in-0.030 in.).

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Old 09-15-2008, 06:53 PM   #4
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

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Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Answer to second part of your question.

Check to make sure clutch clearance is 0.5 mm-0.7 mm (0.018 in-0.030 in.).
I think I put in one ounce in the drier the last time so I will put that much in again and the clutch clearance is about .018. Thank you. Anxious to see if my oil in the compressor is clear!

Jerry

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Old 09-15-2008, 07:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Somebody called for a duck consult? The guys are quacking, gettin' everyone together for the big fly out, south to warmer waters.

I don't know if I mentioned the compressor warranty requiring the filter/drier replacement in past posts but I have read about it as insurance against immediate contamination and ruining a new compressor. Normally, a big job like yours, when done by shops to ensure you don't return, requires completely flushing the system of debris and oil by opening all the fittings and pressure flushing with solvent the condenser and evap coils, and lines. Being a rebuild job and flushing out all oil means starting from scratch with replacement oil of sufficient quantity with an empty compressor unless the compressor is already loaded with oil. Then draining all the oil out and using factory guide lines to distribute the oil to the four major components; compressor, condenser and evap coils, and filter/drier. This way a newly rebuilt system has the best chance of having oil lubrication since the oil is already distributed, leaving refrigerant to move the oil around.

Now for the other method. Be sure the system has clean oil by sampling some of it. If replacing the filter/drier again, yes, you must refill the new filter with appropriate oil. If replacing the compressor, yes, drain any oil from the old compressor and use this amount as the amount of new oil to put in the new compressor. All you're doing is balancing those two components with oil amounts removed from the system with the same amount of new oil into the two new parts.

Generally, as long as there's a nice little gap (air) the new clutch/compressor is ready to install. This should have been done when it was assembled before purchase.

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Old 09-15-2008, 07:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Thanks, fdryer, for the input. (And thanks for all your valuable help in the past on this very subject) As mentioned, I put in about one ounce of PAG oil in the drier the last time but I think I saw somewhere that it was recommended to only put about .4 ounce. Would you happen to know which is correct or is that such a small amount, it wouldn't make much difference?

Jerry

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Old 09-15-2008, 08:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

I'd say its insignificant with what you're doing with the major repairs.

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Old 09-15-2008, 09:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
I'd say its insignificant with what you're doing with the major repairs.
Thank you!

Jerry

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:27 AM   #9
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Bought a "Proliance" compressor from Pep Boys and in the box was some info. The flier inside made some statements about PAG oil, etc. I have no idea how true these statements are, I'm just listing. It stated---

"The ENTIRE" system must have 3.5 ounces of oil for each pound of HFC134a refrigerant. (Cannot be applied to compressors that have an oil sump)

There are three weights of PAG oil--ISO46, ISO100 and ISO150. All General Motors A/C systems use ISO150 PaG oil (Ready Aire #0114).

If a component is being replaced without servicing the remainder of the system the amount of oil drained from that component plus one ounce should be put in the replacement component. If no oil is drained from the component that was replaced add two ounces of the proper oil to the replacement component before installation. NOTE: Oil capacities were secured from dependable sources; we however make no claim to their accuracy. The vehicle manufacturer's service manual should be consulted whenever servicing any vehicle."


Okay, all that info is up for discussion, if someone would like??

One thing that was mentioned was that an extra ounce of oil should be added to the total that was drained from the current or bad component, or compressor in my case, so if I measure 3 ounces from my bad compressor, I should add 4 ounces to the "rebuilt" compressor before installing? That kind of makes sense because there will be oil sticking on the inside workings of the old compressor that will not be measured for replacement.

Another thing is that the Saturn dealer told me there was only one weight of PAG oil and not to worry. This flier says that all G.M. units use 150 weight! When I filled my last compressor (the current compressor with the bad clutch I'm replacing) I used 100 weight PAG oil. Don't know if I should look for 150 oil before filling the rebuilt compressor.

Where the flier states that if no oil is drained from a component, add 2 ounces of oil. Since that applies to a drier which you can't drain and measure, does that mean I should add two ounces of oil to the new drier???

Okay, all you professional A/C guys, want to add or subtract from these statements? Thanks for any input.

Jerry

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:47 AM   #10
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

And it looks like the above info is incorrect, just by the following info I found off the Web. ---------------

"When servicing a compressor, technicians must follow manufacturers' recommendations relating to both oil quantity and type. Recently (August 2002), General Motors Corp. released a new PAG oil that went into production in certain 2002 model vehicles. This new GM Universal PAG Oil, U.S. Part No. 12378526, is compatible with all GM R-134a A/C systems (refer to GM Bulletin No. 02-01-39-004). Also, in December 2002, GM issued a new compressor oil balance procedure, used when replacing a compressor, which supersedes all previous information in their service manuals (Refer to GM Bulletin No. 02-01-38-006)."

I'm going to try to find more info on the GM Bulletin No. 02-01-38-006.

Jerry

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Old 09-16-2008, 12:14 PM   #11
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

More info here for others, like me, who have questions. Some of this has already been covered by others on this forum.

Also keep in mind when replacing leaky o-rings on all A/C systems, including R-134a systems, that replacement o-rings and their fittings should be lubricated with either mineral oil or an application-specific, silicone-based lubricant instead of PAG or POE oils. PAG or POE oils should not be used due to their hygroscopic nature that can promote moisture attraction, possibly causing o-ring deterioration or thread fitting seizure.

Most replacement compressors today are being shipped without the proper amount of oil recommended by the automotive manufacturer. When replacing a compressor, add half of the recommended oil to the compressor, and the other half to the new accumulator/receiver-drier, which should also be replaced at this time. Before operating the A/C system, always rotate the compressor shaft by hand with a spanner wrench a minimum of 10 times to clear any refrigerant oil from a cylinder. Remember, too much refrigerant oil is also detrimental to compressor life and A/C performance. Excess oil will sit in the condenser, slowly heating up, and act as a heat sink - preventing proper heat transfer.


Input by those in the know???

Jerry

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Old 09-16-2008, 01:30 PM   #12
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Hi guys. Thought I'd lend a hand here, being an A/C guy.

Oil - The 97 SL uses 5 ounces of oil for the entire system. That's not much, so you don't want to be low on oil, or the compressor will overheat and be damaged. Obviously, flushing the system out and adding exactly 5 ounces would be the best way to go, but in your case, doesn't make sense. If you replace the compressor and drier, drain as much oil out of each as you can, into a measuring cup, and add that much back. Half in the compressor, half in the drier. Too much oil can cause an insulating effect, and the system won't cool as well, so keep that in mind.

Drier replacement - The main purpose of the drier is to filter out debris and MOISTURE. The drier has a desiccant bag in it. Any time you open the system, and expose the desiccant to the atmosphere, it absorbs moisture. If you're in an especially humid climate, it doesn't take long for the desiccant to be fully saturated, and no longer effective at filtering. Once fully saturated with moisture, the moisture reactes with the refrigerant and oil, creating a kind of acid that can eat through o-rings and seals. So that's why we always require the drier to be replaced.

Oil Again - The Saturns NEVER used PAG 150 oil - that oil was originally used on the R4 and H6 Series compressors, the piston-driven units. The Saturn is a rotary vane unit, and the original oil was PAG 100. However, in 2002, I believe, GM issued Bulletin # 02-01-39-004B, which superceded ALL oil to the lightest, PAG 46. PAG 100 or PAG 46 will be fine, but don't use 150.

Jerry's post about lubricating o-rings prior to installation is accurate. If you use oil to lubricate any threaded fittings, make sure you do NOT use PAG oil, or you'll have a hard time loosening them if you need to in a few years.

Also correct is the statement that most remanufactured comrpessors are shipped dry, including Proliance, just up the road from us. Most compressor remanufacturers, ourselves included, add a couple of ounces of 'assembly oil' (that highly secret ingredient being mineral oil) to keep the o-rings, seals, and bearings lubricated for any shelf life the compressor might have.

Did I hit everything important?

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Old 09-16-2008, 02:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Quote:
Originally Posted by techchoiceparts View Post
Hi guys. Thought I'd lend a hand here, being an A/C guy. If you replace the compressor and drier, drain as much oil out of each as you can, into a measuring cup, and add that much back. Half in the compressor, half in the drier. Too much oil can cause an insulating effect, and the system won't cool as well, so keep that in mind.


Oil Again - The Saturns NEVER used PAG 150 oil - However, in 2002, I believe, GM issued Bulletin # 02-01-39-004B, which superceded ALL oil to the lightest, PAG 46. PAG 100 or PAG 46 will be fine, but don't use 150.

Did I hit everything important?
Thanks, techchoiceparts, for your input. It has been the concensus on this board to empty the oil from the old compressor and add the same amount back to the new or rebuilt compressor---but then, I think, to add about one ounce to the drier if replaced. Question is---when measuring the amount of oil from the old compressor, should an extra ounce or so be "allowed for" because of the residue oil left in the old compressor that we couldn't measure? And how do you get oil out of the drier to accurately measure what is supposed to be replaced?? Thanks,

Jerry

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Old 09-16-2008, 05:18 PM   #14
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

If you measure the amount drained to use as the amount to fill the replacement compressor with, do not add any extra to make up for what's lining the inside of the old compressor. This would be considered adding more than necessary and becomes the over-oiling problem (or splitting hairs). Rather than worry about draining the filter/drier, use the recommended amount for filling the replacement as per FSM guidelines. For example the same compressor for system may require 5-ounces of oil in a Saturn but may use 7-ounces of oil in a Honda suv (example only). Same compressor and filter/drier but different amounts of oil. Use recommended amounts from the FSM and you'll be fine. Only the compressor, condenser coil, evaporator coil, and filter/drier are specified with oil amounts when each one is replaced. The total a/c system oil amount is also specified in total.

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Old 09-16-2008, 05:45 PM   #15
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
If you measure the amount drained to use as the amount to fill the replacement compressor with, do not add any extra to make up for what's lining the inside of the old compressor. This would be considered adding more than necessary and becomes the over-oiling problem (or splitting hairs). Rather than worry about draining the filter/drier, use the recommended amount for filling the replacement as per FSM guidelines. For example the same compressor for system may require 5-ounces of oil in a Saturn but may use 7-ounces of oil in a Honda suv (example only). Same compressor and filter/drier but different amounts of oil. Use recommended amounts from the FSM and you'll be fine. Only the compressor, condenser coil, evaporator coil, and filter/drier are specified with oil amounts when each one is replaced. The total a/c system oil amount is also specified in total.
Okay, thanks, fdryer. I'll fill the compressor with what I take out but am I safe with one ounce in the new drier? Thanks

Jerry

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Old 09-16-2008, 05:59 PM   #16
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Yes, don't worry about it. Keep the objective in mind, completing the rebuild without obsessing too much, sealing each fitting with the right O-rings lubed with R12 (mineral) oil, and an initial evacuation with the gauges set up properly to check on a leak-free sealed system before following up with a complete evacuation for as long as necessary and final leak testing before recharging with R134a.

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Old 09-16-2008, 06:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

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Yes, don't worry about it. Keep the objective in mind, completing the rebuild without obsessing too much, sealing each fitting with the right O-rings lubed with R12 (mineral) oil, and an initial evacuation with the gauges set up properly to check on a leak-free sealed system before following up with a complete evacuation for as long as necessary and final leak testing before recharging with R134a.
Yes, as you can tell, I am a worry wart. I bought some mineral oil today so tomorrow I will install the rebuilt compressor. I won't get the new drier for about 10 days from Rock Auto but that's no problem. Thanks for all your help and I'm hoping the old oil in my old compressor is clear!

Jerry

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Old 09-16-2008, 06:26 PM   #18
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

Yeah, I can understand, after all you're just a pig and I'm just a duck!? We animals gotta' stick together. People out there just love roast duck, roast pig!?

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Old 09-16-2008, 07:07 PM   #19
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

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Yeah, I can understand, after all you're just a pig and I'm just a duck!? We animals gotta' stick together. People out there just love roast duck, roast pig!?
Maybe that's why I don't have such an easy time with mechanics----no opposable thumbs!

Jerry

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Old 09-17-2008, 12:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: A/C questions upon installation of compressor

fdryer, I'm pleased that the oil in my old compressor is clear, clean and the only color is from the dye that was in my system! Hot dog, I'm ready to install the new compressor but was very surprised to see that there is only one ounce of oil in it! I'm really tempted to put in two ounces but hopefully you will advise, soon. So glad it was only my clutch that was bad!!!!

I drained about half of the oil from the suction port and the other half from the other. I didn't know I would get oil out of both ports. Glad I tried to empty both. Anyway, will still have to install the new drier when that arrives in about 10 days so if I don't hear from you soon I will put two ounces of oil in the compressor but less in the drier, therefore, I should be able to compensate for the over flow of oil in the compressor with less in the drier. Thanks,

Jerry

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