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Old 01-05-2019, 03:07 PM   #21
Saturn Night
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1995 SC2
Default Re: Who has lightened their flywheel, SOHC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1996SW2 View Post
OH Boy...Night...you could have tried to make your point without being insulting. For starters, I don't recall mentioning anything about 1.9L DOHC or Saturn for that matter. I'm certainly not going to debate the issue with someone as knowledgeable as you are un the realm of automobiles and motorsports.

Let me ask you this, if you were just a teensy weensy bit over your head in anything, would you not differ to a known professional? Well, thats exactly what I did, Sir.

Just to list a few of the ingredients that made up mine and my Dad's engines...lets start off with a billet crank, toss some Carrillo Rods in there, Flat Top pistons (forgive me, I don't keep the build sheets handy to recall every detail. Not to mention it'd cost between $15-$18,000 for a full copy ) a crap ton of head work and force fuel and air through with a bulletproof Weber 45 or a perfectly matched set of ballanced and blue printed SU Carbs. Lets hook either of these motors up to a 4spd square cut dog engagement box (you with me, Night?) and drive through a series of left turns, right turns and straights. It's calked a Road Course.

Now here's a question for you...lets say you had the opportunity to have an engine built, forget money, by one of the most respected engine builders in North American Road Racing , are you going to argue your B.S. opinion with him? Doubt it. Nevertheless, he says, "Night, I want you to go ahead and hold 9000rpm through these turns and stay in the higher gears through these. They're going to want a slow start. You'll be coming up the hill and wont be able to see the starter. Since you're sitting 17 out of 55 to cars in classes much faster than you. Here's what we do, just before the top of the double clutch down to 1st. Youre going to be around 9500rpm. Shell be fine. As soon as that starter flinches, take it to 10, drop 2nd and say goodbye

If you didn't enjoy the story, there's this thing called google. First name is Kent last name Prather. Anyway, long story short, he's done a few laps and built a few motors. If he says not to use an aluminum flywheel, I don't. My last one was 13.68:1 and my Dads was over 14:1.

Have a nice day, Sir.
with somebody of your experience and knowledge, and the ability to drop $18k on a 13-second car, I should be completely distraught and wrecked with intimidation, right?

Because I am certain that you are aware that 1993-1998 crankshafts are identical on ALL Saturn 1.9L engines, but it was great that you assumed I was referring only to the DOHC.

FYI: Stock 1993-1998 crankshafts are Saturn Part number 21007571 and they are still available from GM for a list price of $721.29 + shipping.

GM interchange shows the crankshaft fits ALL SC1/SC2/SL1/SL2/SW1/SW2 models in that year range.

Guess what that means?

The SOHC has the same 4 internal counter balance weights, as the DOHC.

Do I need to spell out, in crayon, how the cylinder blocks are identical from 1991-2002 and casting numbers were never used?

I would love to hear more of your pompous stories and bragging, to offset the offense you took to my post.

You don't see aluminum flywheels on street cars, for exactly the reasons that have already been stated:

The Flywheels are expensive and labor-extensive to change. Street cars will not perform as well in certain conditions, because of the physics trade-off of a lighter flywheel.

Oh, by the way, since you mentioned taking corners at 9,000rpms......

Holding your rpms consistent with your engine's built power band rpm ranges, around sweeping turns in a road course, is easier to achieve with the heavier flywheel.

See, it is called inertia. A rotational object(or any object) in motion, will continie in motion until acted upon by another force.

Friction, heat, tire rolling resistances, differential slip, pumping losses of the transmission, etc. are all negative forces against your flywheel. At 9,000rpms, it generates very little torque(as gear speed increases, gear torque decreases). This means that the negative forces against have a greater effect at reducing its rotational speed over time around the corners.

A heavier flywheel is not as adversely affected by these physical and mechanical losses, hence why automakers used heavy flywheels and not super-light, aluminum, race-application flywheels from the factory.

Since we are throwing around anecdotal references, the particular machinist that rebuilt my head stated it did not need any porting, amd recommended that I spend the $80 he typically charges elsewhere on my street build I am doing.($80 to port match the exhaust side only to match the gasket).

He recommended this, after I showed him the gasket and the OEM header, and made his recommendation based on the fact that he would have to port both the manifold and the head almost .060" to match.

So, I went ahead and took my head home and did a test with a micrometer, to both the manifold amd the ports. At the center of the ports, due to the casting process, there is about a -.010" of port height, when compared to the manifold. At each end of the ports, the opening for the exhaust port is .090"(.080" in the centers), and then I checked both a 1993-1998 manifold and the 1991-1992 header.

They both mic at .090" all the way across the manifold openings, on both types of manifold.

So, in this case, my machinist was accurate in his assessment, as street engines do not need anything more than a "port match", as full racing ports drop low-rpm torque to gain high-rpm HP.(Mine IS a DOHC).

By understanding HOW each modification to an engine will affect its behavior and performance, you can build an engine to do what you want it to do.

Engine building is not a "cookie-cutter", "one-size-fits-all" for every engine.

Racing modifications and parts are designed and engineered for racing engines.

I can tell you one thing, since you like listening to racing champions over "joe schmoe", why did you avoid an ultra-light, racing flywheel for a car that you drag race on a flat, straight surface?

A racing flywheel, in a dragster, is a good thing. You want the car to rev quicker and drop revs between shifts quicker. In this case, the lighter flywheel will reduce ETs but will NOT change trap speed MPH(as the flywheel has no effect on peak HP production or torque, as the flywheel is a negative force against the crank due to being connected to the transmission input shaft and its internal oil pump similar to the serpentine belt sapping power from driving the accessories).

Oh, I used these concepts on my 1992 Camaro, that drove from Warren, OH to Mason, OH and back(538 miles round trip), and with the carbon-fiber P/S pulley from a GM FWD 3100 SFI(also smaller diameter), no A/C, no smog pump, and smaller diameter alternator pulley, I still had 3/8 of a tank of fuel out of a 3,300 lbs vehicle with a V6. I got over 600(almost 700 miles on that tank in total, as I still had enough gas to drive to and from work for a week, too).

Last tike I checked, my Camaro was EPA rated for 16 city/25 highway mpgs. I wonder, since I am so ignorant on how to build street engines and so ignorant on how an engine operates, HOW could I manage to get it to average almost 35 mpgs(WITH the catalytic converter still on the car)? That car was also able to out-accelerate more powerful, newer cars with higher than my 140 rated HP(which means I was making more torque and HP from the modifications).

I mean, because you are so much more brilliant and intelligent than myself.

Of course, if I spent $18k on building an engine for a race car, it would still run faster than 13s.........

...
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Old 01-05-2019, 06:11 PM   #22
1996SW2
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Default Re: Who has lightened their flywheel, SOHC?

That was an impressive diatribe of...WOW!!!
I couldn't fathom being able to rattle off such facts and/or fiction let alone take two days out if my life to punch it into a keyboard. I'm just a take it apart puttem' back together kinda guy that's still wondering where a $18k 13sec quarter mile car came from.

And....back on topic

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Old 01-05-2019, 06:47 PM   #23
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Default Re: Who has lightened their flywheel, SOHC?

Over the years, I've read and been involved in a few 'discussions'. This one is repeating the same cycle. Completely off topic and never addressing the issue of lightened flywheel use when its most likely an issue with hanging rpm between shifts not attributed to factory flywheels but an engine issue allowing rpms to hang longer than usual. I'm no racer and have driven a few manuals over the years and have never encountered hanging rpm between shifts that won't drop. The act of releasing throttle just before clutching automatically drops rpm since the engine starves for air and fuel at rpm shifts. For rpm to hang (to me) means an engine problem, not a flywheel issue.

I've learned from personal and shared experiences (from Saturnfans) how EFI system problems can mask issues that can distract anyone chasing a problem that isn't there and unable to refocus their attention to other things that are usually at fault. Its too easy to blame fault on something when unfamiliar with EFI systems.

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Old 01-05-2019, 11:59 PM   #24
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Default Re: Who has lightened their flywheel, SOHC?

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Originally Posted by 1996SW2 View Post
That was an impressive diatribe of...WOW!!!
I couldn't fathom being able to rattle off such facts and/or fiction let alone take two days out if my life to punch it into a keyboard. I'm just a take it apart puttem' back together kinda guy that's still wondering where a $18k 13sec quarter mile car came from.

And....back on topic
Yeah... it happens quite a bit actually. And it's rarely on topic, nor does it make sense, but the wall of nonsense still keeps happening!


Much like Alordofchaos I couldn't quite place the car. Which surprised me, as a decent number of them were running around still when I was younger. Maybe if it was a little older I would have figured it out, I think most of the people I knew in HS that drove them had at least 70's models. Fun little cars, even stock.

I bet Road America is an absolute blast in such a car. I've never made it there, but watched plenty of racing action at the track over the years. The closest thing I've probably driven was a few semi hot laps in a friends prepped RX7 at Laguna Seca. Even that rotary didn't near the revs you are talking about, more in line with the bikes of the time. Awesome stuff.

...
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Old 01-06-2019, 01:01 AM   #25
1996SW2
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Default Re: Who has lightened their flywheel, SOHC?

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Yeah... it happens quite a bit actually. And it's rarely on topic, nor does it make sense, but the wall of nonsense still keeps happening!


Much like Alordofchaos I couldn't quite pla7ce the car. Which surprised me, as a decent number of them were running around still when I was younger. Maybe if it was a little older I would have figured it out, I think most of the people I knew in HS that drove them had at least 70's models. Fun little cars, even stock.

I bet Road America is an absolute blast in such a car. I've never made it there, but watched plenty of racing action at the track over the years. The closest thing I've probably driven was a few semi hot laps in a friends prepped RX7 at Laguna Seca. Even that rotary didn't near the revs you are talking about, more in line with the bikes of the time. Awesome stuff.

I ran Laguna Seca and Sonoma once. Love the elevation changes.

I'm going to "out" myself since the "stretch in truth" wasn't called out like i hoped it would. Two parts of the story were askew.
I never ran my car more than a tick over 8,000rpm. The race start described was the first time I slammed the gear box that hard going straight to redline. It also was not on our builders guidance did I act, it was by suggestion of his son (we'd all play musical cars on practice days) who is currently a 4x SCCA National Champion and one of the Hottest Mazda builders in N. America.

Truth said and no more skeletons in the closet, I'm going to sit back and learn. No more Hyjacking.

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Old 01-06-2019, 01:21 PM   #26
Signmaster
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Default Re: Who has lightened their flywheel, SOHC?

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I ran Laguna Seca and Sonoma once. Love the elevation changes.

I'm going to "out" myself since the "stretch in truth" wasn't called out like i hoped it would. Two parts of the story were askew.
I never ran my car more than a tick over 8,000rpm. The race start described was the first time I slammed the gear box that hard going straight to redline. It also was not on our builders guidance did I act, it was by suggestion of his son (we'd all play musical cars on practice days) who is currently a 4x SCCA National Champion and one of the Hottest Mazda builders in N. America.

Truth said and no more skeletons in the closet, I'm going to sit back and learn. No more Hyjacking.

I've mentioned to another member or two we should start a "motorsports history" and or bench racing thread in the General Discussion area. I've got plenty of cool older motocross and road racing photos. Mostly bikes, since that is where I wasted my money more than cars. I've never ridden or driven Sonoma, but attended races when it was still Sears Point. I don't think the full course has changed much since I was last there. Chances are if it's a long standing road race course in California, I've been there at some point. And many others from long gone drag strips to motocross, to.... well if it had engines I might have been there.

I'm glad you outed yourself, I was going to do some Google foo and try to find out how they were getting so many revs out of those little engines! But all is fair in bench racing as long as you out yourself.



As for the "sitting back and learning".... Back in the day before internet I remember learning that lesson well. Getting info out of the old hands that had been there and done that wasn't easy, but usually well worth it. The crazy thing is that now with the internet, it's still almost as hard since you have to filter out the noise from all the good information.



Oh yeah... the topic. Flywheels. I'm far from an expert, but listen to the experts enough to know that everything has harmonics, and a whole host of factors come into the picture. From the original post, for a SOHC I don't know if lighter would be something I would want regardless, but if I did it I'd highly consider using the DOHC damper just in case. Even though the SOHC still won't turn the revs, the dual cam damper might help with harmonics.

I know the people over the years that I've considered the experts often look at a lot of factors, including the balancer/damper that ends up on the other end of that crankshaft.

...
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: Who has lightened their flywheel, SOHC?

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My car was was a '61 MG Midget.
Thanks! I dunno why, when I first thought of the car, I thought maybe MG but then thought, nah, that's not it.
maybe because I usually saw later models. I rode in one once with a coworker - it was both fun and terrifying to be out with modern traffic

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