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Old 10-28-2007, 09:54 PM   #1
Jamin
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Default Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

...which wasn't the plan in the begining. But I'm bnringing the '96 back from the grave, and it needed rotors and pads. And afreind had one of the Saturn Motorsports Stillen slotted & drilled rotors and Satisfied carbon-ceramic pad sets around that he wasn't going to use. Front brakes from teh '00 went ot he '96, and the '00 now has upgraded front binders. And really. what's the point if I don't do more to make it worthwhile?

SO - the brakes put me in STS-STX for SOlo II. I can legally go crazy on teh suspension in that class, header (as long as it doesn't change the location for the cat), CAI, exhaust... Man, I wasn't planning on doing anything with this, lol. Now plans include rear disk conversion (will be done soon), '91/2 header (shortly as well), probably make my own CAI unless therte's a good cheap one ya'll recomend.

Which brings me to suspension. I was going to get the AMR coilovers back when that was getting going, but it didn't happen, and I decided to keep this car stock. Now that I'm not - are they stioll available? 2nd suspension bit - in teh spirit of using cheap JY parts wherever possible, does anyone know if the rear sway bar for he SW's is bigger/stiffer than the stock SC2 one, and if so by how much?

Gotta pick ou some wheels, too...

*sigh*
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:09 PM   #2
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
Which brings me to suspension. I was going to get the AMR coilovers back when that was getting going, but it didn't happen, and I decided to keep this car stock. Now that I'm not - are they stioll available?
http://www.sixthsphere.com/viewtopic.php?t=22796

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
does anyone know if the rear sway bar for he SW's is bigger/stiffer than the stock SC2 one, and if so by how much?
Exactly the same.
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:57 PM   #3
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

Did you just change pads and rotors? The calipers are the came right? If that is all you did then you are still in stock class. If you can run stock, run stock. Especially if you are new to the sport. Running a modified class is like being a cold war superpower. You invest a ton in technology/parts in an attempt to get or keep an edge.

Rear discs put you in STX, which is a little higher class of vehicles and can be a bit hard to compete in with a Saturn. Some folks don't care about the rear disc conversion if the rest of the car is STS. Early cars had discs and are actually better Solo cars. So putting the discs on a heavy later car still isn't as good as an early disc equipted car. It really depends on what the other STS drivers think. But Natrional events will want you to be STX.

The front bar off SX1s is smaller. I'd switch to one of those. It may sound dumb, but it will help fight you understeer. Find a 17.5mm rear adjustable bar if you can. If you run stock class you can still change the front bar around. There are many different thoughts about what is the best thing to do in stock class.

AMR is doing a buy-in, but the prices are still a ways up there. I used H&R Race springs with ST struts this season with great results. Be warned the Race springs and very hard on the ST struts.

The OBX header has been great for me, but be warned power adders doen't make too much of a difference in Solo. I would guess it is worth less than a 100th of a second. Tires, suspension and alignment are the 3 words you must live by.


My current suspension/tire/brake setup:

H&R Race
ST Struts
OBX Camber bolts
Ebay front strut bar
Ebay strut bar, on StreetTrix rear brackets
SX1 front bar
SPS 17.5mm Adjustable rear bar
Reenfotrced rear roll bar brackets

215/50/16 RT615 tires

SS brake lines
Rear disc conversion
EBC grean stuff pads

Front: -1.3 caster, -2.4 camber, Slight toe out (don't have current exact number
Rear: -1.9 camber, 0 toe

I run STS, but my car has to be Oked by the other STS cars at every event because it is illegal by the book. Interesting things have conspired the past week to make me want to go to nationals and I will be making my car a legal STS car now.

Buy a Solo rulebook and research the classes. If you want a competitive cars be sure you know what you are doing before you turn a bolt.
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Old 10-29-2007, 09:53 PM   #4
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Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

I am very familiar with Solo II classes (Utah Region 2nd place GS 2005, didn't compete enough to contend before that and haven't since - but a race a lot in vegas region, Eastern Idaho region, and UTah, mostly codriving an STX prepped MX-6 now, occasioanlly a DSP 325i), but thanks for the rundown, lol. My interperetation of the Stock rules is tht you can change pads, but not rotors - stock replacements only, aftermarket would probably get by, but certainly not to cross-drilled and slotted Stillens, lol - if I'm wrong, than HS it is I guess.

I'll probably go STS/STX anyway, just because I'd like the extra power and fun around town, canyon runs, and the occasional Midnight Mayhem drag event. I'll eventually put an OPM LSD in, so that'll be STX anyway. Besides, I can run RT615's or similar on teh street and not have to change tires two or three times a day (I don't miss that from ruynning GS). I might even go DSP for sh175 & giggles, just 'cuz I have easy access to a bored SMS t/b and extrude-honed intake. I know cars pretty darn well, and I'm a very good, very experienced drag racer, above average hold-my-own-and-then-some autocrosser, and a decent track driver. In short, I know cars, i know mods, and I can drive. Just so you know I'm not just an 18 year old ricer asking dumb Q's, lol.

Rear diaks are going to happen. The '91-'92 header is going to happen. A AI is going to happen, and 2.25" exhaust. The front rotors/pads are done. From there, I need to decide how much top spend on the suspension. Thanks for the input regarding teh swaybars; I had hoped they'd be a tad thicker. Everything I read says life's gonna suck for shocks.
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Old 10-30-2007, 11:49 AM   #5
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

I meant nothing belittling, I didn't think you knew the can of worms that are SCCA Solo rules. It is great to see another picking up the Saturn as their weapon of choice.

If I remember right you can replace pretty much all wear items, including rotors with any replacement. Cross drilled rotors are fine as long as they remain stock size.

I'd say shoot for STS or H-stock. They are the sweet spots for Saturns and STS may be even sweeter in the coming years. Lots of top STS guys are looking at Saturns to replace the aging '89 Honda hatches.
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Old 10-30-2007, 12:26 PM   #6
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Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

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Originally Posted by cloud819 View Post
Lots of top STS guys are looking at Saturns to replace the aging '89 Honda hatches.
Really? I'll believe that when I see it. It would certainly be cool, but the Saturn aftermarket is almost on life support right now. Maybe, just maybe, if some top level National drivers started showing interest it would breathe some life back into it. But until I see it, I'm still a doubter.
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Old 10-30-2007, 08:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

Eh - more weapon of I already have it hatn weapon of choice, LOL. I love the way it drives - I picked this car out on purpose, sought out a '98+ SC2 that is, rather than just bought a car that happened to be aSaturn. But I didn't have SOLO on the mind when I did, just a good on gas, somewhat sporty, safe and bulletproof reliable car. Every S-series I've owned has been rock solid to 150k or more (a few far more) miles. But now it's looking like I'm not going to build a purpose-built race car, so might as well breathe a little fun into this one. :shrug:

I dount the S-series will ever be a really competitive STS car. I love it, but a good driver in a WRX is tough to beat, and there are a host of other vehicles that can really chew on a Satty, no matter how well prepped. But I'm not a national level competitor, and just want to have a blast playing my favorite game that is autocross. if I can take a local trophy or two, so much the better. Daily driver power and the flexibility to have the power to play other games (track days, drag nights) is more important overall than being more competitive in STS than I would be in DSP for example.

Thanks for all the input! BTW - I've been pointed to the 2nd buy-in for AMR's. Probably do it. But iI'd like some real world feedback from people who've driven them, preferably experienced drivers with a technical knowledge of things like trail braking and proper entry-exit to give me an idea of what they're like. I'll probably get them anyway - that's a good price and there aren't many other options for under $5k or so, lol, but I'd like to get an idea what to expect. ANyone?
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Old 10-30-2007, 08:35 PM   #8
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1999 SL1
Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
...which wasn't the plan in the begining. But I'm bnringing the '96 back from the grave, and it needed rotors and pads. And afreind had one of the Saturn Motorsports Stillen slotted & drilled rotors and Satisfied carbon-ceramic pad sets around that he wasn't going to use. Front brakes from teh '00 went ot he '96, and the '00 now has upgraded front binders. And really. what's the point if I don't do more to make it worthwhile?

SO - the brakes put me in STS-STX for SOlo II. I can legally go crazy on teh suspension in that class, header (as long as it doesn't change the location for the cat), CAI, exhaust... Man, I wasn't planning on doing anything with this, lol. Now plans include rear disk conversion (will be done soon), '91/2 header (shortly as well), probably make my own CAI unless therte's a good cheap one ya'll recomend.

Which brings me to suspension. I was going to get the AMR coilovers back when that was getting going, but it didn't happen, and I decided to keep this car stock. Now that I'm not - are they stioll available? 2nd suspension bit - in teh spirit of using cheap JY parts wherever possible, does anyone know if the rear sway bar for he SW's is bigger/stiffer than the stock SC2 one, and if so by how much?

Gotta pick ou some wheels, too...

*sigh*

only the brake ROTORS are illegal in stock class. my advice: ditch those worthless rotors and get the cheapos. the pads are what make the magic happen anyway. then you can save your money on suspension parts and concentrate on driving your car better...


s3aturnr

p.s. also, if you're worried about rules... a rear disc swap would be illegal in STS as well unless you swapped in the entire ABS package. (that is, of course, if your model year had an available rear disc option). it would, technically, make it illegal for DSP, too. not sure about STX, tho...
...
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Old 10-30-2007, 11:20 PM   #9
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

Rear discs swaps are perfectly fine for STX.

Word through the vine is Andy Holis (sp?) is looking at the SC2. The AMR coilovers and some other movements could make the STS class ripe for Saturns. Last year saw the '89 be blown out by the 240sx. How hard is it to think of a Saturn besting an '89?

The anti-roll bar is simple in design just about any company can put them into production whenever. Bolt ons make minimal power, but the engine already starts at a roughly 20hp advantage, don't weigh much more and the early year SCs and SC2s are plentiful. With high enough spring rates the simple suspension's camber adding can be reasonably controlled. The only place that the Saturn really lacks is computer tuning, but some of it can be answered with skewing computers like the S-AFC.

I think a move the Saturns is in the realm of possablity. All of the things that made them a valid alternative to the Civic on the showroom floors can make them a valid car to challange the Civic in STS.
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Old 10-31-2007, 12:00 AM   #10
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Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
...which wasn't the plan in the begining. But I'm bnringing the '96 back from the grave, and it needed rotors and pads. And afreind had one of the Saturn Motorsports Stillen slotted & drilled rotors and Satisfied carbon-ceramic pad sets around that he wasn't going to use. Front brakes from teh '00 went ot he '96, and the '00 now has upgraded front binders. And really. what's the point if I don't do more to make it worthwhile?

SO - the brakes put me in STS-STX for SOlo II. I can legally go crazy on teh suspension in that class, header (as long as it doesn't change the location for the cat), CAI, exhaust... Man, I wasn't planning on doing anything with this, lol. Now plans include rear disk conversion (will be done soon), '91/2 header (shortly as well), probably make my own CAI unless therte's a good cheap one ya'll recomend.

Which brings me to suspension. I was going to get the AMR coilovers back when that was getting going, but it didn't happen, and I decided to keep this car stock. Now that I'm not - are they stioll available? 2nd suspension bit - in teh spirit of using cheap JY parts wherever possible, does anyone know if the rear sway bar for he SW's is bigger/stiffer than the stock SC2 one, and if so by how much?

Gotta pick ou some wheels, too...

*sigh*
I read on 6S that AMR finally delivered after a year. There was only one OE 15mm rear sway bar on 1991-2002 S-Series twin cams. The rear disco puts you in STX unless you put ABS bits on there and claim it came that way and stay in STS. 1991-1998 S-Series only have that loophole. Get some lightweight 15x7 wheels. Oh yeah if your Cold Air Intake (CAI) is like the AEM CAI and involves cutting a hole in the wheel liner, you're no longer in STS. Short Rams like the AEM SRS or Injen, Iceman, Hotshot, K&N FIPK are OK in STS.
...
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Old 10-31-2007, 12:17 AM   #11
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Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cloud819 View Post
Front: -1.3 caster, -2.4 camber, Slight toe out (don't have current exact number
Rear: -1.9 camber, 0 toe
uh... I hope you don't have negative caster. that would make it steer like a shopping cart. -1.3* camber and +2.4* caster would be better.
...
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Old 10-31-2007, 12:06 PM   #12
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

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uh... I hope you don't have negative caster. that would make it steer like a shopping cart. -1.3* camber and +2.4* caster would be better.
Good catch; 1.3 caster, -2.4 camber. Just couldn't get any more caster.
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Old 11-01-2007, 04:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

Quote:
my advice: ditch those worthless rotors and get the cheapos.
Too late, the SMS kit was on the car when I made the post, and is what made me decide to keep going with the car. Have to say I love them, too - actual braking force isn't greatly improved (switching the Satisfied pads - which are okay - for some HP+ would fix that) but fade is DRASTICALLY reduced. Like, night and day. Noticable even around town, like coming down a downhill offramp and a good clip, heaving on the poor things to make a tight right at the bottom, then zipping 2 blocks up and stopping for a left turn light, for example - a more-than-once-a-day thing for me. With the stockers, fade was very apparent approaching that light after the 80+ mph to 30 heel-toe series coming down the ramp. And it was downright bad if I'd been hard on the brakes while on the freeway beforehand. Likewise, one good decelerative rip from 90 or 100 to 40 or so would have them sweating badly enough that you could feel it while braking, nevermind using them again shortly afterwords. Sure as hell not worthy for track days! Now - nadda. Just stops. Me likey.

Rear disks will put me in STX. The car has ABS, so I don't have to claim it does, lol. Wouldn't matter, '98+ had rear drums with the ABS too. The LSD will put me in STX anyway, so I don't care. I was given to believe that the disk swap was okay in DSP, but if it's not I'll forgo the t/b and intake manifold and roll on 615's instead of slicks, go to STX. No big deal.

Lightweight wheels are a given. Just a matter of which ones on what budget. :shrug: I'll probably bump up to 16's or 17's for the shorter sidewall and wider rubber combination, most likely run a 225 or 235 45 series on a 17x7" rim. Gearing won't be shortened like it would with a 205 or 225 50 series for autox, but they'll be my street tires, too, so I'll keep the speedo reading okay and the odometer correct. Go with a wheel with a bit less offset to move the extra width to the outside.

I'll probably build my own CAI unless I can find a worthy one cheap. The only real money I wasnt to spend in for the LSD and coilovers, I'd like to do everything else on the cheap, get out of this project for $3k or as little over that as possible. Of course, we all know how that ends up, lol, but if I go over I'd rather spend it on a good seat and 5 point harnesses than on a prettier intake, header, or fancy strut ties. Those are all things I can provide myself. Even the wheels I'd rather buy used in good shape. :shrug:

I thought the caster sounded weird too, but didn' give it oo much thought, lol.
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Last edited by Jamin; 11-01-2007 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 11-01-2007, 05:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: Well, it's official - the '00 is getting modded...

I've yet to have any drastic fade issues while on good pads. It could be the pads making the difference many times more than the rotors. Most folks that I would consider experts in the field would rather have the added mass of a solid rotor to the vented disc. But I will admit they look cool.

The Falken Hanabi (sp?) is a great lightweight rim that doesn't break the budget. Edgeracing has them.

235 is a lot of tire, but it will fit is I remember correctly. I'm on 215/50/16s right now. I may try for 225s next year.
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