Battery died last night, jumped it & drove home. Now cranks, won't start...

[1999_Saturn_SC2]

My friend borrowed my car last night while we were at a party and didn't turn the headlights off when he came back with it. I jumped it with another friends car and drove it home. This morning I went out to let it warm up and it fired up but ran like crap right after it idled down, then stalled before I could jump back in it and put my foot on the gas pedal. Now it cranks but wont start. No check engine/battery light before it happened. It did the same thing last night after I jumped it, it started up but barely idled until I hit the gas. It's a '99 SC2 automatic, 189,000 miles. Any suggestions?

[fdryer]

Search for testing fuel and spark. Fuel filter ever replaced?

[1999_Saturn_SC2]

Originally Posted by fdryer

Search for testing fuel and spark. Fuel filter ever replaced?

Nope, never had the filter replaced. Maybe I'll try that Sunday. I figured out how to start it after I posted here... If it sits too long outside, it wont start unless I push the gas pedal to the floor and keep it pushed down while I turn the key to start the car. It'll start then, but I have to keep giving it gas for a few seconds after it starts for it to stay running because it barely idles right after it starts up. Still sound like the fuel filter maybe?

[1999_Saturn_SC2]

Still no SES warning light by the way. And it idles fine after I give it gas for a few seconds after it starts, and it'll start right back up like normal if I restart the car while it's still warm...

[fdryer]

Well, with 21 posts to date, it may be a presumption that you replaced the original plastic tipped coolant sensor and still have an issue with starting. maybe you didn't visit this repair requiring an inspection to replace the faulty round nosed plastic coolant sensor with a flat nosed brass one? Your description now seems to fit a flooding start where the faulty sensor plays a major role in excessive fuel at start up. Replacing the coolant sensor and ensuring the connector is clean and free of fouling eliminates excessive rich/flooding incidents.

[1999_Saturn_SC2]

Originally Posted by fdryer

Well, with 21 posts to date, it may be a presumption that you replaced the original plastic tipped coolant sensor and still have an issue with starting. maybe you didn't visit this repair requiring an inspection to replace the faulty round nosed plastic coolant sensor with a flat nosed brass one? Your description now seems to fit a flooding start where the faulty sensor plays a major role in excessive fuel at start up. Replacing the coolant sensor and ensuring the connector is clean and free of fouling eliminates excessive rich/flooding incidents.

Ok, I'll try the CTS Monday when the dealership parts department is open, not sure if they still sell the updated brass one for S-series Saturns. Now that I think of it the warning light does blink every now and then with the picture of a thermometer, I didn't worry about it since the coolant gauge always stays at 1/4. Didn't think it could cause this condition since I'm the one that has to flood it by flooring the gas pedal to get the engine to start. It acts like it isn't getting enough gas on its own when I try to start it normally, but I've never replaced the CTS. I'll update how it goes Monday.

[BobtheTechguy]

WOT turns off injectors during cranking I thought?

[fdryer]

^ ^ Do you see the conflict? ^ ^

Flooring the gas pedal always tells the pcm to shut off all injectors during starting attempts. How this is interpreted is where confusion is created.

Knowing nothing about EFI systems in general can make anyone interpret things as they see it. One person can insist that WOT means getting more fuel in as if no fuel was being fed while another may see this differently. There can be confusion without facts to go by. Add in a faulty sensor and more confusion is created. The faulty sensor throws almost everything out the window insofar as comparing facts to symptoms. Straightening out confusion begins with facts and theory of EFI operations.

The majority of '91-'01 coolant sensors failed (cracking) by sending incorrect (freezing) temperature signals so the pcm simply uses this incorrect signal and enriches the fuel being injected. At start up the richer fuel mixture either makes the engine run immediately or makes starting difficult with pedal movement improving the odds of getting the engine to run. In warm weather the rich fuel mixture can run the engine at lower rpm when warm engines don't need rich fuel mixtures. In cold weather the engine needs more fuel and tends to run perfectly until the engine warms up where rich mixtures makes the engine run less than ideal. Getting back to starting, if the engine doesn't start up right away, as almost every EFI system guarantees, flooding will follow very quickly - the result of more than one starting attempt as this faulty sensor continues to send freezing (incorrect) temperature signals to the pcm. The pcm continues to use the richest fuel mixture possible so flooding will result in as little as two starting attempts. Holding the pedal open only allows more air to mix with this excessively rich fuel mixture and sputtering starts may result. Holding the pedal to the floor tells the pcm to shut off injectors while starting as the programmed 'clear flood mode' comes into play. This isn't in any owner's manual as flooding was never considered a possible fault. GM failed to see the plastic coolant sensors causing major engine issues and stayed mum soon after, reluctantly engineering the brass sensor replacement. The S-series suffered from this as all other models inherited the corrected coolant sensor.

Anyone can interpret starting as either a lean or rich fuel issue without information to go by. Pulling spark plugs, checking fuel pressure, spark, etc., separates and narrows down where the problem lies.

BTW, the 1/4 scale temperature needle deflection is a giveaway that neither the coolant sensor nor thermostat was replaced. Replace both immediately.

[1999_Saturn_SC2]

Bought the Coolant Temp Sensor yesterday from a Chevy dealer that had one in stock ($49 altogether!), will be getting it installed Wednesday. Hope it cures the problem, I'll give an update when it's done.

[alordofchaos]

I completely missed this thread earlier

You live in Detroit, where there's a part store every few miles. The ECTS is $10 at any one of them.... return the dealer part if you can.

As for paying someone to do that, it takes about 10 minutes max, but you will be paying someone between a half hour to an hour worth of labor at $100/hr.

Watch this short video, consider purchasing the tools (maybe $20)
How to find/replace the ECTS,

[WageWor]

Originally Posted by alordofchaos

I completely missed this thread earlier

You live in Detroit, where there's a part store every few miles. The ECTS is $10 at any one of them.... return the dealer part if you can.

As for paying someone to do that, it takes about 10 minutes max, but you will be paying someone between a half hour to an hour worth of labor at $100/hr.

Watch this short video, consider purchasing the tools (maybe $20)
How to find/replace the ECTS,

Worth learning to do on your own. Fairly easy to access, takes no time at all, and you'll probably do it more than once if you hang onto the car for awhile. These cars are really simple to repair once you understand how!

[1999_Saturn_SC2]

It's been a while, but I finally got around to replacing my ECTS today (04/16/13). Hopefully somebody can help me out here, because now the car has 3 new problems which developed immediately after the repair...

1. The engine fan now runs constantly, no matter how long it sits before restarting the car.

2. The transmission now upshifts hard while driving.

3. The SES warning light is now on.

The temp. gauge reads a little higher now after the ECTS replacement, just under the halfway mark. I don't understand how these problems are related to the ECTS, but if anybody has a clue, please let me know.

[off-track]

Originally Posted by 1999_Saturn_SC2

It's been a while, but I finally got around to replacing my ECTS today (04/16/13).

I'd say!

The engine fan now runs constantly, no matter how long it sits before restarting the car.

The computer isn't seeing the ECTS at all. That's why the fans run (assuming the AC is off). Was the connector green/corroded at all?

The transmission now upshifts hard while driving.

Is the battery good/fully charged?

The SES warning light is now on.

You could get the code read but it's not worth it yest from what I see?

The temp. gauge reads a little higher now after the ECTS replacement, just under the halfway mark. I don't understand how these problems are related to the ECTS, but if anybody has a clue, please let me know.

Again, that's where it will sit if the PCM isn't seeing the ECTS.

[fdryer]

^ What he said......................^

[1999_Saturn_SC2]

Originally Posted by off-track

I'd say!

... Yeah, I drove it with the bad ECTS for a while. Stupid, I know lol.

[/QUOTE]The computer isn't seeing the ECTS at all. That's why the fans run (assuming the AC is off). Was the connector green/corroded at all?[/QUOTE]

... I had the ECTS & wires installed at a shop today for $60, they didn't mention anything.



[/QUOTE]Is the battery good/fully charged?[/QUOTE]

... I did have the battery tested at AutoZone about a year ago when the starter went bad (didn't know it was the starter at first), and they said it had a bad cell. It's been working fine all winter so I never replaced it.



[/QUOTE]You could get the code read but it's not worth it yest from what I see?[/QUOTE]

... The shop ran the SES code, it came back as something like "low voltage", I forget what he said exactly. He tried to clear it and it came right back on. The SES light was NOT on before I had the ECTS replaced (which they said was burned and completely disconnected before I brought it in).



[/QUOTE]Again, that's where it will sit if the PCM isn't seeing the ECTS.[/QUOTE]

How could I remedy the PCM not acknowledging the new ECTS? And do you think it could be as simple as the thermostat being bad? I touched the upper & lower radiator hoses while it was running and they were both room temperature and felt like no coolant was running through them. Not sure what the deal is...

[1999_Saturn_SC2]

.....

[madpogue]

Get the CODE(S) associated with the SES light. Ignore any description or text; just get the code(s).

You may have been sold a gauge sending unit for a gen-1 car. What's the part number and brand of the sensor you bought?

Another possibility is that the connector is damaged or corroded, and either getting no reading from the sensor, or shorting together. Did you examine the connector terminals when you had it unplugged?

[off-track]

Originally Posted by 1999_Saturn_SC2

... I had the ECTS & wires installed at a shop today for $60, they didn't mention anything.

"Wires"? If you're saying that you had a shop replace it I'd go back and tell them that they made it worse and really need to fix the problem (assuming that you let them diagnose the problem and didn't dictate "do this"?).

I did have the battery tested at AutoZone about a year ago when the starter went bad (didn't know it was the starter at first), and they said it had a bad cell. It's been working fine all winter so I never replaced it.

Huh? "A year ago" and "a bad cell"?!? I have NO idea where you are at with that (is it new/old, good/bad)?

The shop ran the SES code, it came back as something like "low voltage", I forget what he said exactly. He tried to clear it and it came right back on. The SES light was NOT on before I had the ECTS replaced (which they said was burned and completely disconnected before I brought it in).

On second thought.. RUN, do not walk from that shop and never go back. Ask your trusted friends at work who they would recommend for auto repairs or, hunker down and spend some time reading old threads here if you want to learn how to fix it yourself, right the first time.

If you haven't already, start with this thread

[1999_Saturn_SC2]

Went back to the shop, they put it back in the air and discovered one of the wires that connects to the ECTS was disconnected (the wires that came with the ECTS when I bought it from the dealer). It was wierd, before it was installed it wouldn't start unless I floored the gas pedal before turning the key if it sat for a few hours, and the temp gauge pretty much stayed on the "C". After it was replaced (before the wire got reconnected), not only did the fans run constantly, but there was no coolant running from the upper & lower radiator hoses while the engine was running (found that out yesterday), the Service Engine Soon light was on, the temperature gauge always stayed on the halfway mark, even when I started the car after it sat overnight, and the transmission started to upshift hard after driving it for ~5 minutes (I'm guessing from no coolant flowing to keep the trans fluid from overheating). All of that was just from that little ECTS

Thanks for the responses though. It runs/drives perfect again now. I'm back on my mission to take it over the 200,000 mile mark (7,933 miles to go)