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Old 02-03-2009, 01:32 PM   #1
dorseto
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Default Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

The Astra doesn't cut it. Saturn needs a product the size of the Fit, Yaris, Scion, SX4, and Versa. Even Ford is jumping on the bandwagon very soon with the Fiesta. Chrysler is trying to find headway into the niche soon with its very possible partnership with Fiat.

And none of this rebadging the Daewoo engineered Aveo business.

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Old 02-03-2009, 01:33 PM   #2
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

And make those body panels polymer for the Saturn purists like me out there. That would pull us back into the Saturn stores.

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Old 02-03-2009, 01:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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Originally Posted by dorseto View Post
The Astra doesn't cut it. Saturn needs a product the size of the Fit, Yaris, Scion, SX4, and Versa. Even Ford is jumping on the bandwagon very soon with the Fiesta. Chrysler is trying to find headway into the niche soon with its very possible partnership with Fiat.

And none of this rebadging the Daewoo engineered Aveo business.
Opel has the Corsa; rumors were saying a while ago the next generation Corsa would come to the U.S., IIRC. Don't know about that now.

(P.S.: there are 3 current Scion models, only one of which is a subcompact - the xD.)

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Old 02-03-2009, 01:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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And make those body panels polymer for the Saturn purists like me out there. That would pull us back into the Saturn stores.
Agreed on that one. Even if the polymer panels were just on the front fenders and doors (like the L series) if changing a unibody to full polymer is too expensive and complicated, I'm ok with. But bring a good subcompact and price it affordably to get people, especially young people, back into buying the brand is the key here.

Right now, the new Honda Fit and upcoming Ford Fiesta has been generating a lot of interest since last summer when gas prices were high. Saturn better jump on this big niche before its way too late. Even VW is going to pull their Polo model to the USA very soon.

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Old 02-03-2009, 02:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

With GM's tight budget, designing a successful sub-compact shouldn't take a lot of R & D money. All it would cost would be the price of a few bus tickets to send some of their marketing folks down to Spring Hill, Tenn and retrive the plans for the "S" series platforms.

And while they were there, I'd betcha someone could show them photos of the plant cranking out 20,000 to 25,000 cars per month in the mid 90's, or let them see what 40,000 customers of Saturn looked like during the annual homecoming events.

Of course, on the downside, the 4 people or so, employed by GM to build Saturn
decals to affix on foreign manufactured Opels might need retraining for another job!

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Old 02-03-2009, 02:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

I said this last week, it will have to absolutely be the Astra. That car has to put Saturn on its back and move. Whatever they have to do to make people want to buy that Astra instead of something else, do it now! They have to give the Astra some type of aftermarket...even if it's just lipkits and special editions. They don't have the money to fully develop another vehicle, so what's the next best thing to do? Take what you already have and make it work. Hell, for that matter, make a Aura coupe...that would be a deal. But until that happens, make the Astra Saturn's baby. I really see no other short term solution. In the long run, Aura coupe, for now, start cranking out some special edition Astras with lip kits and badging from the dealers. Even though the wheels already compliment the Astra, pop some other wheels on there by Konig, Drag, Enkei, somebody. Add different shift knobs and pedals...something to give the Astra a different look and make these kids want them instead of Civics. I know that's a long shot, but people are looking for something different than imports. And honestly, that wouldn't take but so much money to develop a lip kit and make a few other mod ifications. Then whatever feedback they get from there will allow Saturn to see what they can do next. Do they offer other engine/suspension mods OR begin to develop a vehicle that will compete with the imports from the start. Just look and see what Hyundai has been doing that last few years. I've been seeing quite a few Genesis popping up in my area and with the Genesis Coupe, Saturn has got to do something now.

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Old 02-03-2009, 02:50 PM   #7
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

I know this sounds silly, but I am seriously hoping that Ford pulls up it's reigns and is serious about building the 2010 Focus here as well as the Fiesta. Competition like this will only mean that Saturn and GM AND the general US buying market (aka customers) will "RETHINK" the concept of small affordable sub-compacts and put a higher priority on them than SUVs.

Being Saturn is the only GM division that is already emphasizing and was born on this concept, true that this would mean a closer return to Saturn's vehicle manufacturing roots.

btw - the Astra does cut it, depending on if safety and hp and superb handling are a priority. When comparing the horsepower of other sub-compacts, only the Astra came up as high as it did. While the gas mileage could be better, personally I feel safer against todays Ginormous SUVs than I would driving my old SC2 with the extra weight that the Astra has. Put the 2.2L in the Astra and we have a out and out winner IMO.

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Old 02-03-2009, 03:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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Originally Posted by gyrlspeedrt View Post
I said this last week, it will have to absolutely be the Astra.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marx404
btw - the Astra does cut it, depending on if safety and hp and superb handling are a priority. When comparing the horsepower of other sub-compacts, only the Astra came up as high as it did. While the gas mileage could be better, personally I feel safer against todays Ginormous SUVs than I would driving my old SC2 with the extra weight that the Astra has. Put the 2.2L in the Astra and we have a out and out winner IMO.
No, the Astra won't cut it. The Astra is in the compact field of cars with the Focus, Mazda3, Civic, Corolla, Sentra, and Rabbit.

I said a true sub-compact. A car that fits underneath those compact size cars that is sold at a cheaper price. With the exception of the Mazda3 in the North American market, each of those compact cars I listed has a smaller true sub-compact out on the market or soon to be coming out.

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Old 02-03-2009, 04:17 PM   #9
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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No, the Astra won't cut it. The Astra is in the compact field of cars with the Focus, Mazda3, Civic, Corolla, Sentra, and Rabbit.

I said a true sub-compact. A car that fits underneath those compact size cars that is sold at a cheaper price. With the exception of the Mazda3 in the North American market, each of those compact cars I listed has a smaller true sub-compact out on the market or soon to be coming out.
oh, ok, you are talking like the Corsa, I get it. We do need somethng that will compete with the Fit and the upcoming Focus/Fiesta. gotcha, agreed.

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Old 02-03-2009, 04:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

Bringing the Corsa over was brought up many times over on one of Jill's blogs at imsaturn..they even have a group over there as well (We want a Saturn Corsa is the name iirc).

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Old 02-04-2009, 09:20 AM   #11
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

1. Take 3rd Gen. S Series.
2. Install updated bits like new stereo, satnav, and rework transmission a little.
3. ???
4. Profit.

I don't see what's so hard about that, personally. They can put extra crenulations and swoops and ridges on the body panels if they want to make it look like a "new" different car.

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Old 02-04-2009, 10:48 AM   #12
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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1. Take 3rd Gen. S Series.
2. Install updated bits like new stereo, satnav, and rework transmission a little.
3. ???
4. Profit.

I don't see what's so hard about that, personally. They can put extra crenulations and swoops and ridges on the body panels if they want to make it look like a "new" different car.
There's some thought to this. Ford figured that out, that's why they had to bring back the Taurus (or rebaged the Ford Five Hundred) and getting ready for the Fiesta. On my street alone, there's 3 Sls.(And 1 L Series, but that doesn't count ) and tons of them throughout the neighborhood. Since that was the most popular line, revamp it. Easier said than done, but the strength that would add back to Saturn would definitely begin to pull them out of this slump. BUT while they are working on this, get to work on the Astra...work with what you got for now...

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Old 02-04-2009, 02:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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There's some thought to this. Ford figured that out, that's why they had to bring back the Taurus (or rebaged the Ford Five Hundred) and getting ready for the Fiesta. On my street alone, there's 3 Sls.(And 1 L Series, but that doesn't count ) and tons of them throughout the neighborhood. Since that was the most popular line, revamp it. Easier said than done, but the strength that would add back to Saturn would definitely begin to pull them out of this slump. BUT while they are working on this, get to work on the Astra...work with what you got for now...
Ok, but let's think about this for a moment. I think Ford is getting on the right track, but lets look at what they are doing to get there and then compare it to Saturn's current direction:

Ford builds some great cars in the European market, the Mondeo, Fiesta and Focus for instance. In most American's minds - The American builds of the Focus and Five-Hundred and Taurus were rubbish and losing sales other than as rental or fleet vehicles.

The Five-Hundred, aka new Taurus is actually based upon the Mondeo. The Fiesta has been a flagship compact over there as well as the Euro-Spec Focus. Not in the US, so Ford USA is basically re-engineering the European models and building them here.

Saturn has been sharing the same platform and powertrains with Opel (L-series) since 1998. The L-series and Vectra are very close cousins, as now are the VUE & Antara as well as the imported Astra. Saturn/GM also looked to the Europeans to elevate the quality of thier vehicles and US perception of quality of thier brand, not unlike Ford or Chrysler have done.

Lets look further than this scenario: KIA - a world manufacturer or Nissan (who sells the Renaut as the Versa or the Frontier to Suzuki). Chrysler's bygone merger with Daimler. Chevrolet and GMC with the Colorado/Canyon I-5 engine built in Korea, the Aveo built by Daewoo. And it goes on....

I just wanted to illustrate that the automotive market is Globalizing. This is nothing new to anyone who follows cars. It just seems that Saturn is late to the Globalization party.

Back to the O.P. what I wrote has lots to add to my agreement that if everyone else is offering a true sub-compact, Saturn should return and maintain it's small car roots - whatever direction it is taken in to remain competitive.

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Old 02-04-2009, 02:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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Ok, but let's think about this for a moment. I think Ford is getting on the right track, but lets look at what they are doing to get there and then compare it to Saturn's current direction:

Ford builds some great cars in the European market, the Mondeo, Fiesta and Focus for instance. In most American's minds - The American builds of the Focus and Five-Hundred and Taurus were rubbish and losing sales other than as rental or fleet vehicles.

The Five-Hundred, aka new Taurus is actually based upon the Mondeo. The Fiesta has been a flagship compact over there as well as the Euro-Spec Focus. Not in the US, so Ford USA is basically re-engineering the European models and building them here.
Nope - the Five Hundred actually came from a Volvo platform. We haven't seen a derivative of the Mondeo since the Contour/Mercury Mystique; the next Fusion is supposed to be more in line with the Mondeo, however.

Whether it was the name change, the single engine choice (that was perfectly acceptable), or the clean but simple styling, the Five Hundred definitely should have done better than it did. Tons of space, great safety ratings, and an overall good car. In large part it was probably the overshadowing by the Chrysler 300.

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Old 02-04-2009, 03:01 PM   #15
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Attention Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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oh, ok, you are talking like the Corsa, I get it. We do need somethng that will compete with the Fit and the upcoming Focus/Fiesta. gotcha, agreed.
And if Saturn wants to sell a car that's even smaller, there's the Opel Agila.

Best and smartest move GM could make for Saturn is to turn them into the US outlet for Opel, and not bring a couple over and sell them as Buicks.

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Old 02-04-2009, 03:22 PM   #16
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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. Chevrolet and GMC with the Colorado/Canyon I-5 engine built in Korea.
Not sure where you got that one from but the I4 and I5 DOHC Vortec engines were all produced at the Tonawanda Engine plant in Tonawanda, New York, never from Korea.

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Old 02-04-2009, 03:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

Problem is, the Astra needed the options it has in Europe over here. It also needed marketing. I don't think I've seen any TV or print ads actually marketing the thing. It'd also be nice if it were available with AWD.

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Old 02-04-2009, 06:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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Not sure where you got that one from but the I4 and I5 DOHC Vortec engines were all produced at the Tonawanda Engine plant in Tonawanda, New York, never from Korea.
GM Powertrain and Wikipedia at the time of origination stated that this engine was designed by Daewoo and built in Rayong, Thailand (not Korea,my bad) As to date, that information may have changed for 2009 MY.

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Old 02-04-2009, 06:21 PM   #19
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

Having had the opportunity to travel all over the world, GM makes some fine small cars.

The obvious: Germany, England, and Korea.

But even in Thailand, GM makes cars. Saw some neat ones in Thailand.

I've owned manual transmission Firebird and Mustang. I know a little about driving a fun car.

I also owned 4 Chevettes. Those cars were fun cars to drive. And the seats were large enough (and bigger than the ION) for me.

I think North Americans are fickle. Some desire an inexpensive car yet some want all the latest and greatest technology. In the same car, yet.

Honda Fit is a great small car. GM has some similiar to this in other parts of the world.

I know some will state that the Chevette was a cheap low tech car. But I drove many miles as if it was a sports car. I had fun in every Chevette I owned. And little to few mechanical problems. Two were new and two were purchased used.

I just don't think the guys and gals at 100 - 400 Renaissance Center really get it!

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Old 02-04-2009, 06:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: Saturn needs a true sub-compact if it wants to survive

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Nope - the Five Hundred actually came from a Volvo platform. We haven't seen a derivative of the Mondeo since the Contour/Mercury Mystique; the next Fusion is supposed to be more in line with the Mondeo, however.

Whether it was the name change, the single engine choice (that was perfectly acceptable), or the clean but simple styling, the Five Hundred definitely should have done better than it did. Tons of space, great safety ratings, and an overall good car. In large part it was probably the overshadowing by the Chrysler 300.

I stand corrected. Maybe I was thinking Montego?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Five_Hundred

Quote:
The car was based on the Ford D3 platform (also known as the Volvo P2 platform), which also supports the Volvo S60, S80, XC70, and XC90 SUVs. This platform was used on the similar (and also soon to be out of production) Mercury Montego (which is not available in Canada), and is also the basis for the Ford Freestyle crossover SUV.

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