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Old 02-04-2009, 11:15 PM   #41
titan12
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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Originally Posted by MiSaturn View Post
GM not marketing Saturn - what a revelation. Even with sales down 40% over LY, GM did find the money to offer EVERY hourly employee at least $20,000 and a $25K car voucher. I wonder where they were able to raise that kind of money... . (that's OK, I know the answer)

Again, I applaud Ford for taking the high road letting people know that they don't "need" government funding. Do you purchase a car from a company you know is going under, or from one that might not go under?

I would not be applauding Ford so much... The reason they don't need funding now is because they received billions in loans last year when the recession wasn't a issue..

They are now milking these to stay a float and act like they are the only American car maker in good shape... They are in the same ship as GM and Mopar...

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Old 02-05-2009, 02:22 AM   #42
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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I would not be applauding Ford so much... The reason they don't need funding now is because they received billions in loans last year when the recession wasn't a issue..

They are now milking these to stay a float and act like they are the only American car maker in good shape... They are in the same ship as GM and Mopar...
LOL

Let's see....they drew down on existing credit lines at reasonable (historically low) interest rates when it became clear that a liquidity crisis was looming. GM could have done the same thing, BUT they didn't. Meanwhile GM can't get ANY credit other than what they can milk from the government.

Wannna keep playing?

The bottom line is that GM is poorly run. (shocker)

They had the same warnings that Ford did, but chose to pursue business as usual instead of trying to plan ahead. And now we're seeing the result. They face an almost certain trip to bankruptcy court while their competitors move ahead. Granted, their competitors are not rolling in dough either, but they seem to have been a little more on the ball in terms of planning for lean times.

Cheers,

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Old 02-05-2009, 02:59 AM   #43
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

The recession was an issue throughout 2008, and the later part of 2007. Stupid people didn't see it yet though. Ford is on their A game under Mullaly (other than the epic fail that is not bringing the Falcon over here), Chrysler is being run as close to a hibernation mode as possible, and GM keeps faltering whenever given a chance (except you CTS-V, my pretty).

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Old 02-05-2009, 03:31 AM   #44
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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Totally different than an A6 on the inside though
Citroens have nothing to do with Audis at all. Heres some of their other cars:

C4


C5

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Old 02-05-2009, 08:36 AM   #45
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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Maybe GM doesn't view steel panels as a positive, given Saturn's dent resistant past. I think if they wanted to market steel panels or tight panel gaps they would have.
And here's the kicker. The MAIN reason that Saturn went away from polymer was because of fit and finish complaints by reviewers such as Consumer Reports, they felt that the polymer gave a cheap car look. But Marketing never advertised the new look other than the stupid "Thats a Saturn?" short commercial.

Anybody remember the old Lexus (?) commercial with Jonathan Price where he rolls a ball bearing down the seams of the car and talks about perfect gap lines?

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Old 02-05-2009, 09:34 AM   #46
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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And here's the kicker. The MAIN reason that Saturn went away from polymer was because of fit and finish complaints by reviewers such as Consumer Reports, they felt that the polymer gave a cheap car look. But Marketing never advertised the new look other than the stupid "Thats a Saturn?" short commercial.

Anybody remember the old Lexus (?) commercial with Jonathan Price where he rolls a ball bearing down the seams of the car and talks about perfect gap lines?
No. The "main reason" Saturn dumped polymer was that it was CHEAPER to more fully share platforms with other brands and CHEAPER to use steel than plastic due to the resulting economies of scale. It was about shaving cost, not about shaving panel gaps.

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Old 02-05-2009, 09:59 AM   #47
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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I would not be applauding Ford so much... The reason they don't need funding now is because they received billions in loans last year when the recession wasn't a issue..

They are now milking these to stay a float and act like they are the only American car maker in good shape... They are in the same ship as GM and Mopar...
What? The difference is Ford never took any taxpayer's money for government bailout, last year or this year. I applaud them for that.

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Old 02-05-2009, 10:24 AM   #48
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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BobbyP, I would like to see the Citroen come back to the States as well. I have always been a huge DS fan, one of my dream cars.
French cars. The most comfortable seats I have ever sat in in any car.

My brother was a Europen car fan. First car new Volvo. Made in Belgium. Junk. Rust bucket.

Second was a new Peugeot 504. 12 month 12,000 mile warranty. Automatic transmission went at about 18,000 miles. In those days about $3,500 to replace. At around 48,000 there was gray colored foam in engine oil. Temporary fix of about $1,800.00 'weld' job. Advised by dealer to sell car. He did. No gave up on his quest to own foreign cars. Drives a Jeep wagon now.

Hopefully things have changed with French cars now.

Me, I think this is a great economy car for the price. And it's a French (well Romanian) car.

CAR HERE

About $6,000 to $7,000.

If the French can market and sell a new car at this price, why can't GM?

REVIEW

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Old 02-05-2009, 10:38 AM   #49
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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No. The "main reason" Saturn dumped polymer was that it was CHEAPER to more fully share platforms with other brands and CHEAPER to use steel than plastic due to the resulting economies of scale. It was about shaving cost, not about shaving panel gaps.

Cheers,
Actually it was for both reasons, improved fit and finish as well as cutting costs. I worked for a retailer when this change over started to happen. There were and still are many that wanted to keep the polymer panels but in doing market research, the gaps between panels to allow for thermal expansion were always an issue. So to create a more upscale appearance, gaps had to be smaller which only metal can accomplish that. The sound deadening ability of metal is better than polymer as well, even with the added insulation that was done in the later models.

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Old 02-05-2009, 11:48 AM   #50
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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No. The "main reason" Saturn dumped polymer was that it was CHEAPER to more fully share platforms with other brands and CHEAPER to use steel than plastic due to the resulting economies of scale. It was about shaving cost, not about shaving panel gaps.Cheers,
I would say that was also a MAIN reason as well.

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Old 02-05-2009, 12:15 PM   #51
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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French cars. The most comfortable seats I have ever sat in in any car.
So it's true!

When I first met my wife, she was driving (don't laugh) a Renault LeCar. Imagine a Kleenex car like an '80s Hyundai, with a slew of ham-handed electronics thrown at the engine controls (it had a solenoid, relay, what-not for EVERY last little thing). Interior plastic smelled like the bottom of the Seine (I would imagine). To say it sounded like putting a lid on a metal trash can when you close the door, would be an insult to metal trash cans. Shifter had all the precision of Tom Daschle's tax preparer. Exhaust note: "surly waiter". On a sufficiently quiet night (rare in Detroit, granted), you could hear it rusting. But she used to go out and just sit in the seat for a while when her back was ailing her. I thought she was just imagining it, but she said it was better on her back than any car seat, any chair in any house, she'd ever experienced. I thought, "in THAT car?" Well, evidently so.

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Old 02-05-2009, 12:53 PM   #52
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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A new feeditems entry has been added:

[drupal=2887]GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Marketing New Models[/drupal]
More than likely if we saw another brand sold at Saturn retailers it would be something that GM has some stake in. Like in Canada where many Saturn retailers also have SAAB. But as we all know, SAAB will probably be sold off. Most European brands that dont sell here already, would not meet federal guidelines with their current models, and it would cost them a lot to make them saleable in the US. My guess is that it wont be something we don't already have here in the US if this were to happen. Maybe ISUZU of Suzuki. GM has had a stake in them, if they dont still. Both are pretty low volume brands, and therefore probably can't afford their own dealer network anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie View Post
Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Marketing New Models
Sounds like GM is going to:

RETHINK: Advertising.

Ha ha

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Old 02-05-2009, 12:58 PM   #53
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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French cars. The most comfortable seats I have ever sat in in any car.
There's a joke in there somewhere.

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Old 02-05-2009, 03:17 PM   #54
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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which is almost a clone of the old C5 Audi A6 (with half of the trunk cut off). Personally, I'd rather walk barefoot on glass that's been sprinkled with salmonella than buy a French car. But that's just me.
Yeah, my first thought was of some weird mutation of an Audi. Wow, that's ugly!

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Old 02-05-2009, 10:09 PM   #55
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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So it's true!

When I first met my wife, she was driving (don't laugh) a Renault LeCar. Imagine a Kleenex car like an '80s Hyundai, with a slew of ham-handed electronics thrown at the engine controls (it had a solenoid, relay, what-not for EVERY last little thing). Interior plastic smelled like the bottom of the Seine (I would imagine). To say it sounded like putting a lid on a metal trash can when you close the door, would be an insult to metal trash cans. Shifter had all the precision of Tom Daschle's tax preparer. Exhaust note: "surly waiter". On a sufficiently quiet night (rare in Detroit, granted), you could hear it rusting. But she used to go out and just sit in the seat for a while when her back was ailing her. I thought she was just imagining it, but she said it was better on her back than any car seat, any chair in any house, she'd ever experienced. I thought, "in THAT car?" Well, evidently so.
Did it have the fabric sunroof? Ours didn't
The brake lines on our LeCar disintegrated (luckily while parked)
I replaced the lines in hope to get the car moving in the 90s but I gave up.
The engine wouldn't turn and I didn't feel like taking it apart
Interesting layout on the LeCar/R5 the engine was longitudinal, sitting behind the transmission and that was behind the front wheels. So it was like an old van but FWD, the engine was next to your knees
The interior smell was strong

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Old 02-05-2009, 10:15 PM   #56
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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French cars. The most comfortable seats I have ever sat in in any car.

My brother was a Europen car fan. First car new Volvo. Made in Belgium. Junk. Rust bucket.
Volvo? Rust bucket? how far back are we talking here?
Can't imagine any Volvo was a rust bucket. At least not in the 1980s Toyota sense.

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Old 02-06-2009, 02:53 AM   #57
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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Did it have the fabric sunroof? Ours didn't
The brake lines on our LeCar disintegrated (luckily while parked)
I replaced the lines in hope to get the car moving in the 90s but I gave up.
The engine wouldn't turn and I didn't feel like taking it apart
Interesting layout on the LeCar/R5 the engine was longitudinal, sitting behind the transmission and that was behind the front wheels. So it was like an old van but FWD, the engine was next to your knees
The interior smell was strong
Nope, no ragtop. And yeah, that forward tranny layout was . I don't even remember where the belts were. And if you think it's out of place to refer, with a now-conventional transverse FWD layout, to the "rear main seal".....

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Old 02-06-2009, 07:43 AM   #58
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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Volvo? Rust bucket? how far back are we talking here?
Can't imagine any Volvo was a rust bucket. At least not in the 1980s Toyota sense.
Bought new. Probably late 70's or early 80's. Can't remember.

The whole car - sides - had quarter and half dollar sized round rust spots - and I mean everywhere.

He did think he was getting a Swedish car. I looked at door panel. Yep, made in Belgium. Someone cut corners with the sheet steel or the paint or both on that model.


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Old 02-07-2009, 10:25 PM   #59
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

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Bought new. Probably late 70's or early 80's. Can't remember.
The whole car - sides - had quarter and half dollar sized round rust spots - and I mean everywhere.
He did think he was getting a Swedish car. I looked at door panel. Yep, made in Belgium. Someone cut corners with the sheet steel or the paint or both on that model.
Those spots were pretty common for Volvos back then. My 1980 had them.
Those spots were better than most other cars fared, think holes near the window frames and on the fenders. Or in the case of 1970s Hondas and Toyotas, the body rusting all the way through where the front strut mounts are and the body collapsing onto the ground.

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Old 02-07-2009, 10:44 PM   #60
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Default Re: GM Throws Lifeline to Flailing Saturn Brand, Admits It Didn't Spend Enough On Mar

Same thing w friend of mine that has a vintage Lincoln Mark IV..water would get caught near the rear window and spread like cancer all the way through the cars. He devised a drain system where water exits thru the rear tire well.

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