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Old 02-27-2019, 12:53 PM   #21
AlexofNazareth
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

I would start by finding a cheap Saturn that you can perform maintenance on and enjoy that as a beginning of your driving experience.

An SL2 or SC2 with 124hp and a 5 speed manual will be plenty fun for you to have. You'll need to save a bit more than 160 CAD to purchase a car. Also, at your age, having two expensive hobbies [Gaming and Cars] is not possible.

Racing/rallying can come after you learn the basics of driving and working on normal repair items.

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Old 02-27-2019, 12:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLfun View Post
Here is what is possible if you have the resources. A rwd v8 turbo swap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa6es9_Emao


But if it's mainly rallying you're after, why not just focus on the suspension?
Raise it a couple inches, find bigger tires and away you go.
For now.
You'd learn alot from just trying it out and seeing what breaks and fixing it as you go along.
That's my opinion anyways....
It's a V6. And Sam probably has 25yrs of experience prior to attempting this build.

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Old 02-27-2019, 01:42 PM   #23
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexofNazareth View Post
, but without some experience and knowledge under your belt, its just going to turn into a mess.
This is how the son of a coworker killed himself. Inexperience and a 300 HP Trans Am. Kid was a HS senior, I think.

I read similar stories most months. Young driver, tree or other car, lives changed/lost in the fraction of a second.

Yes, SeanR's car is very cool, but he had over $3,500 into it and was not done, and was still breaking axles

$150 CAN is not enough for two good tires. You will blow through $150 just maintaining your car for the year.

Under 16 means no license, so you can't drive on public roads. You can drive on closed courses and private roads, but I imagine you will have to have a parent/guardian sign a liability waiver.

Playing video games is nothing like driving a real car. My son played a number of racing games, but now that he has to drive 50 miles to work each day and each mistake costs actual money and puts his life and others at risk, it is a whole 'nuther thing. He is super conservative and has no interest in speed or performance.

Try and find a club, and get some experience behind the wheel. Have you driven any actual vehicles? I mean things like ATVs, lawn tractors, etc.

https://carsrally.ca/cars-regional-links/

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Old 02-28-2019, 10:47 PM   #24
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasterbath View Post
I was thinking lowering my hp to 300.
Would they let a person under 16 drive a rally car?
I would build the engine for power and reliability.
I kinda want to do this to my saturn, at least give it AWD so it can be happy during winter.
I had the idea way back to put a rotary in my saturn so i would say this is kinda a step up for reliability.
Is there any mods to make the stock motor a lot more powerful and work?
Is a Saturn a good rally platform?
You can get over 400hp, from a Saturn 1.9L Twin Cam, with a correctly-built turbo setup. So, 300bhp on the stock engine is realistic.

As far as under 16 and allowed to drive a rally car? I don't know what Canadian driving laws are or how your racing circuits work up north.

Where I race, they will not let any passengers ride in the vehicle being raced, under the age of 16, and 16 is our state laws for obtaining your driving license.

Now, IF your racing circuits have a "Junior" division of racing, it may be legal and possible for you to race under the age of 16.

You will want to most likely Google racing circuits locally to your area of BC.

As far as AWD, in the S-Series? It certainly can be done. It takes a lot of fabrication, but since the chassis has 4-wheel, independent suspension, it can be done.

In theory, you will want a front and rear carrier assembly, that is designed to utilize half-shafts on each side of the ring gear carrier assembly.

The AWD Mitsubishi 3000GT would be a good start, as these cars had two types of AWD:

One type of model had a transverse(FWD) mounted engine and transmission, which was specially designed for AWD.

The other model(I think it was the "VR-4" trim), had a longitudinal(RWD) mounted engine and transmission, and more traditionally designed AWD setup. If my memory serves me correctly, the VR-4 even had experimental, 4-wheel steering.

I would use this car as a concept of how you intend to build the Saturn.

With the right amount of money, a torch, and a welder, you can customize just about anything.

The amount of work and time will vary.

People have swapped VW diesel engines onto these cars, converted them to RWD, and one guy even dropped a 5.7L Hemi(Dodge) engine into his Saturn.

Do NOT drop a Dodge ANYTHING into your Saturn, however, unless you like being chastised often, by yours truly here, or you hate having to always repair your car.

Plus, trying to mix Chrysler and Saturn is about the same as trying to mix religion and politics, or Craigslist and dating.......

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Old 03-01-2019, 02:45 AM   #25
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

I already own my sl2.

I have driven a car before, multiple ones actually and quite smart about driving if i say so myself (back roads and getting water for my farm).

Is there anyway of getting rid of torque steer when i put a small turbo on (don't need too much power, thinking more reasonable).
What is happy non dangerous hp numbers for beginners.

Would a electric set up be better for rally and rally crossing?

Car over heated in past and it was water pump. Would it need a rebuild? (Last owner put stop leak in).

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Old 03-01-2019, 07:45 AM   #26
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

It's alright to daydream about turbocharging or electrifying your vehicle, but in reality your better off leaving the powertrain stock and figuring out the limitations from there.

As far as your engine overheating goes, there's a possibility it has warped the head/block enough to cause issues with sealing the combustion pressure as well as the coolant/oil passages. Do a compression test to see if compression is good. Then once all of the stop leak is flushed out [which I'm not sure how to do that...] I would recommend running the car to see if:

1. Coolant is leaking into the oil
2. Coolant is leaking into the combustion chamber
3. Combustion pressure is leaking into the coolant causing it to over pressurize the system

Until you go through the process of checking things out to gather more information, its just a guessing game with what could be wrong.

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Old 03-01-2019, 12:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasterbath View Post
I already own my sl2.

I have driven a car before, multiple ones actually and quite smart about driving if i say so myself (back roads and getting water for my farm).

Is there anyway of getting rid of torque steer when i put a small turbo on (don't need too much power, thinking more reasonable).
What is happy non dangerous hp numbers for beginners.

Would a electric set up be better for rally and rally crossing?

Car over heated in past and it was water pump. Would it need a rebuild? (Last owner put stop leak in).
Unless you're an expert or know an expert, not someone that talks or shows you his/her conversion from stock to turbo or super charging setup and how many mistakes they made, you're on a very steep learning curve. Most 'experts' learned the hard way if they didn't listen and learn from others before exploding their engines when turbo or super charging. No matter how small the boost, unless you're willing to read and learn about 4-stroke engines, electronic fuel injection, know the differences between naturally aspirated engines from positive boosted engines, you're guaranteed to lean out and/or blow up any engine.

Basically, non turbo engines suck air, creating negative pressures in the intake manifold. EFI systems are programmed to deal with negative pressures. The map sensor detects one bar of pressure, -29.99 in hg to zero/atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi). The moment anyone slaps a turbo charger on a naturally aspirated engine without any other work is guaranteed to lean out or blow the engine as soon as boost is generated. The stock pcm/ecm isn't tuned for boost and cannot detect boost/positive pressures because its map sensor can't detect positive pressures. Even if a three bar map sensor replaced the stock one, the pcm/ecm doesn't know what to do with the signals and still ruins the engine. Boost means positive air pressure forced into the engine, no longer sucking air. More air without more fuel means automatically leaning fuel mixtures - the reason most beginners blow up engines without an education. A three (or more) bar map sensor and a pcm/ecm already tuned from the factory (every engine with a stock turbo or super charger) is tuned to make power correctly.

Diyers attempting a turbo setup needs custom tuning along with engine mods for strength. Even a mild boost leans fuel mixtures with a stock engine computer because it doesn't know a turbo is forcing more air into the engine. Throttle position sensors don't tell the ecm anything other than......throttle position. A one bar map sensor pegs at zero, atmospheric pressure when boost creates positive pressure above atmospheric pressure. Anything above zero gauge pressure is positive pressure and since a one bar map sensor can't measure above normal atmospheric pressure (14.7) or zero on a gauge, the ecm doesn't know how to add more fuel - instant lean condition. A three bar map sensor and pcm/ecm already tuned or any open ecm/pcm that can be tuned are two key items to turbo charging.

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Old 03-01-2019, 01:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

^ ^ ^ +1 to what they said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasterbath View Post
I already own my sl2.

I have driven a car before, multiple ones actually and quite smart about driving if i say so myself (back roads and getting water for my farm).
You are off to a good start, then. Keep up the good work.

Quote:
What is happy non dangerous hp numbers for beginners.
Non-dangerous HP numbers for beginners? No such thing

(unless you count zero )

Stock 124 HP for an SL2 is enough to be fatal to you, and to others with whom you share the road.

Maybe you are already there, can't say without seeing you drive - but learning how to find the limits of your car in its stock form and driving at it safely and consistently is the best first step.

Then you look at suspension, tires, alignment, etc., to improve how it handles.

Once you hit those limits is when it starts making sense to add more power.

Just my opinion, of course

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Old 03-02-2019, 07:42 AM   #29
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

^ Right on!

Do these 1st, not in perfect order, to get it in top functionality:

- NGK Copper Plugs

- Plug Wires

- Air Filter & PCV Valve

- Techron, Amsoil PI, or Redline SI-1 in a tank of fuel

- Use Non-Ethanol fuel if you can get it!

- Quality Tires. If fine, ensure equivalent pressures on same Axle & 3-4 PSI lower in the rear. Example: 32 Front & 28 in Rear.

- Brakes

- Suspension, including Rear Stabilizer Links!

- Alignment

- Take it on a high-rev Freeway run.

- Quality Oil & Filter & keep it full!

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Old 03-02-2019, 11:17 PM   #30
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

We checked the oil in the saturn after 3 yeats before start up and it was good. It wasn't discoloured or anything. It ran great and accelerated like it used to do when we were "testing" if the worked.
When it went to sleep years ago, it blew smoke from the hood and not from the exhaust.
It didnt sound or act weird, it was like i remembered it. All it did that was weird was it kept on taking water from my 2 liter bottle. It took 3 bottles and still wanted more.
My mom put on really good tires for both seasons for the car.

Is there anything to replace on a saturn for more reliability and for safety. I don't know what else to ask.

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Old 05-07-2019, 04:22 PM   #31
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Default Re: More of my dumb research...

I'm going to actually take this topic seriously because this sounds like me years ago. :) Big dreams and ambitions and not alot of knowledge to start but wanting to be taken seriously and not just blown off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasterbath View Post
Okay, so i have alot of questions.
Does the sl corner better under speed then the sc?
Will a awd fit in this car or will rwd fit?
Can a sl be rally crossed?
Is there any good quality body kits for the sl that dont look rice?
Can a boxer fit in the engine bay without too much work?
Can the sl chassis take alot of power or beating from off roading.
My vr6 idea was loosing my attention.
My guess would be the SL and SC corner very similar, a slight weight difference in favor of the SC is probably offset by the generally stiffer body of any 4 door sedan. Long coupe doors aren't a benefit to roof stability and the Saturn uses a spaceframe so this matters. Either could be competitive, at least as much as Saturns will be to begin with. (there may be better cars)

The way serious pros do AWD is probably a custom tube chassis making the Saturn's chassis just a shell - that may not be allowed depending on the nature of rally class you were in. Tho with a tube chassis anything can go under anything then. The OTHER way would be to adapt some other vehicle's AWD system, perhaps a VW Jetta or Golf AWD although they are not that common. I've HEARD of this being done tho I don't remember where offhand, i'd think a "FWD favoring" system like from the Jetta would be easier than something from an Impreza since it's still transverse. Guys with the VR6, stick shift and AWD seem to put 400-500hp thru them.

Anything can be rallycrossed, just dont drive faster than you can see.. besides it's all in the reflexes. :-P Will that be COMPETITIVE against some 600hp AWD Focus or Impreza... probably not. What are the classes you'd want to race in specifically? That may limit/shape what youre doing, incl whether it's to be competitive vs to learn vs to have fun.

I'm not aware of much of any bodykits that were ever made for the SL. However you can potentially modify bodykits for other cars with similar dimensions and shapes - thats how other people of 'unloved' uncommon racers do it.

If youre worried about the amount of work to put a boxer engine in i'm not sure if your ready for the level of other modifications to be highly competitive in an unorthodox car. It wont fit the existing FWD very nicely and to go RWD or AWD is possible but nontrivial - that's more fabbing to switch to AWD/RWD than making the boxer engine work, easily. That said a longitudinal boxer engine would probably fit fine if already converted.

SL alot of power or beating... absolutely not, it's a lightweight economy car. Unlike an impreza designed for 300hp to start, the SL is among the lightest and literally the most efficient of it's day that i'm aware of. For safety you'd probably be needing rollcages tied to suspension points and such anyways and youre almost halfway to a full custom tube chassis by that point. Which you either need an engineering degree, CAD program, and welding experience to do or probably a couple tens of thousands of dollars to do that right and safe because it'd be custom one off work. COULD it be competitive? Perhaps, but fast is not cheap.

The SL is one of the best economy cars (if not the best) of it's time in terms of higher reliability, lower repair costs, and good fuel mileage. I also find them fun to drive. The SC is a sporterized version of one of the best economy cars of it's time but not a full on sports car and not a great choice to be a rally car. ANY car can be made fast, or modified to do what you want if you have alot of money, or are willing to put in hundreds if not thousands of hours of fabrication, engineering, calculation and fine tuning to do it without hiring someone to do it. If the goal is to go rallying on the cheap though there are probably cars that would be more competitive off the shelf and more easily modified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasterbath View Post
Is there anyway of getting rid of torque steer when i put a small turbo on (don't need too much power, thinking more reasonable).
What is happy non dangerous hp numbers for beginners.

Would a electric set up be better for rally and rally crossing?
Not with the fundamental engineering design of the SL. Higher powered FWD cars use things like equal length halfshafts and such that would be nontrivial to try and put in a Saturn.

If you want to learn about "learning to be fast" get the book Drive To Win by Carroll Smith. He makes many aspects of "going fast" in plain down to earth language but with math to back them up so you understand what's going on both at a high level and a low level. Instead of worrying about how much horsepower you have, learn how to drive SMOOTH and you'll automatically become faster over time. The best drivers in any sport all started at lower power. Do you think those F1 guys started with 700hp? They started in go karts. They learned in classes that were deliberately power restricted... so that they would get GOOD... for YEARS... before power was the frosting added atop the cake of great driving skills of carrying speed into a corner and being absolutely connected to the feeling of balance in the car and how the four tire patches feel and everything.

If you want to eventually get FAST, first learn what you already brought to the table to drive smooth and worry about the upgrades later. Start in lower powered or speed limited classes whether for rally or anything. Learn how to feel the limits of the car - what the tires and chassis are telling you, more than thinking "oh this is a safe HP" or "someone told me this is a safe speed for this corner". If you cant feel WHY that's a safe HP or a safe speed or whatever you shouldn't be driving at somebody else's 100% limit anyway.

As a comparison there are plenty of motorcycle shops that will sell any guy who just got a license a 600cc 4cyl bike with a full racing tuck letting him look fast and cool in front of his friends but it's hard to gain confidence with something so overpowered to start. The person who wants to go fast will focus on learning skills exclusively and start with a 250cc or even less, building up those skills, deliberately having a driver faster than the bike so that s/he can wring every bit of performance out possible, then when youre finally hamstrung by having no more performance possible... you upgrade bikes.


Going to electric would have it's own challenges and problems namely the weight of the battery packs, which a Saturn isn't all that great at being designed to handle. There are EV forums and many like to use minitrucks for that reason. I dont know the rules about EV rallying if that's direct competition with normal vehicles but in theory it could have many advantages - I wouldn't expect a conversion to be very cost effective though, how many tens of thousands of dollars is the intended budget? Are you prepared to deal with lethal voltages safely? (electric cars can kill you touching the power source leads in the wrong part in a simple accident) It's like playing with 240vac.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasterbath View Post
Is there anything to replace on a saturn for more reliability and for safety. I don't know what else to ask.
Well NOT putting a turbo on will help both. :^) A turbo alone might turn an engine that could go another 100k into one that lasts 3k or 12k or nobody knows, esp if you lean on it. Which you will. Else why did you get a turbo. When I drove a faster car I got speeding tickets because it made me want to drive fast. I deliberately downgraded to my Saturn SL and focused on just driving smoother instead and automatically got faster at driving/to where I scare my friends usually and yet i'm just loafing because I don't think about it... feeling tire patches... feeling chassis.. etc. I'm no racer or autocrosser, not saying i'd beat people with race training, it's just fun to toss around a light fairly nimble car. Just trying to make the point skills come by practicing smooth instead of focusing on going fast.

The best safety improvement of all is between the ears - improved driving SKILL and vehicle connection/awareness. That rarely builds up well if the vehicle is fast and fun and uncontrollable to start. Random dumb example - I used to 'drift' around FWD cars when working for a rental car company just to make things less boring, we couldn't take the risk of crashing so we were light at first but later got good at it. I thus learned skid control at that job. Late one night I hit ice just right on a FWD vehicle that it deeply oversteered with the REAR coming around... and I instantly corrected without a hitch because it was drilled into instinct by then. A drivers skill. That I learned not pushing it to the limit, but just slowly pushing out the comfort zone and feeling as much as possible about what was happening.


The best reliability improvement is not doing things to a vehicle that reduce it's reliability including making it into something it's not. I'm not saying you cant hot rod a Saturn, esp if it's a toy/fun car on purpose to be that dream sleeper many of us want... but it takes time, money, and learning curves that require a dedication to learning as higher priority than showing off to friends or looking fast. I'm not saying thats what you're doing, i'm just saying if you want to race dont worry about the HP until you can use what you got.

If it's a daily driver not turboing at all would be good, if it's a project only toy that is okay to add later as you get faster. Be aware expenses will start to spiral (one upgrade requires a bunch of others) beyond a certain point north of 200hp.

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