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Old 05-02-2015, 01:14 PM   #1
nissandave
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Default EGR valve and idle question

99 SL 1 with 117,000 miles on it. The other day I got a code P0404 which is indicative of a bad/clogged/dirty EGR valve. Replaced the valve (thanks richpin for the awesome video) and sure enough the old was sticking. Anyway, befor I put the new one on, I did as richpin suggested in his video and started up motor for about 1 to 2 seconds to blow out any loose carbon buildup. When I did this, the rpm's shot up very high, very fast. It was then that it hit me; perhaps the EGR valve can affect the idle and the rpm's of the motor. Is this correct?

The reason I ask is that sometimes when going down a hill/incline my rpm's shoot up as the automatic tranny seems to downshift into a lower gear, which I find odd. But my wife's 2012 Toyota Corolla does this too. If the EGR valve sticks and/or starts going bad, will this cause some episodes of rpm's increasing?

Thanks in advance for any and all info.

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Old 05-02-2015, 02:10 PM   #2
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1998 SC2
Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

Not the absence of the EGR but the unblocked manifold port is why the engine revs up to the limiter. The RPM jump when the trans downshifts is normal.

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Old 05-02-2015, 03:02 PM   #3
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

Quote:
Originally Posted by nissandave View Post
99 SL 1 with 117,000 miles on it. ... sometimes when going down a hill/incline my rpm's shoot up as the automatic tranny seems to downshift into a lower gear, which I find odd. But my wife's 2012 Toyota Corolla does this too. If the EGR valve sticks and/or starts going bad, will this cause some episodes of rpm's increasing?..
No, a sticking egr valve will not cause the engine to rev. The opposite will occur, drop rpm, make the engine hesitate or stall. Something else is raising engine rpm.

The only role the egr valve has is to meter exhaust gases beck into the intake manifold as part of exhaust gas recirculation - feeding exhaust gases back into the fresh air intake to reduce combustion temps. Instead of a diet of fresh air and fuel before emissions regulations, emissions controls requires modifying the a/f mixtures to allow exhaust gases to mix, diluting the a/f mixtures for control of oxides of nitrogen. The egr valve is controlled during acceleration and cruise conditions, closed at idle or wide open throttle. At idle rpm, exhaust gases would drop rpm's or stall the engine altogether so the egr valve remains closed until the car is accelerated. Revving in place will not cause the egr valve to open as the pcm knows when the engine is idling or under load (xmission engaged).

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Old 05-05-2015, 06:31 PM   #4
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Default EGR valve or not???

Well after getting the p0404 code, I decided to just break down and get a new EGR valve. When I pulled the old one off, sure enough, it was carbonized heaven in there.

So I put on the new one and I reuse the old gasket as it seemed better quality and it looked great after I cleaned it up. Test drove car on a few local errands over 2 or 3 days, and all was well. Oh yeah, I did clear out the code with my code retriever/scanner.

So today, I take the Saturn in to work (21 mile trip one way). After I get about 3/4 of way to work, the SES light tells me "I'm back". Get it home and hook up scan tool and a p1404 comes up. After researching I decide to check the battery. I am a novice when it comes to using multimeters, so I get some detailed instructions on it and set it to 12V DC (this was the highest DC V setting available on it). My battery tested at 12.4 or so when the car is off and when it is cranked, it was showing 13.9?

It sounds like either I am doing something wrong testing the battery or could my issue be the re-used gasket? Also, the two hoses (one from intake to PCV and one from air duct intake tube to top of motor) seems to be old and worn. The latter one has multiple cracks in the outer surface of the tube and I was wondering if it is leaking (I don't hear or feel a vacuum leak) could that be my culprit?

Any words of wisdom?

...
1997 SL2:
Hit by deer and sold off cheap

1999 SL1:
Bought in 12/2014, Totaled on 6/10/2015

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Old 05-05-2015, 06:46 PM   #5
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1998 SC2
Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

The PCV air into the engine is not a critical hose, this is the one between the valve cover and the air intake tube.

The PCV tube to the intake can become a vacuum leak so it must be in good shape.

The P1404 is basically carbon in the seat of the valve. Not the same as a P0404.

Take it off and verify it is clean. Aftermarket EGR valves can be flaky. Do some googling and get one of these screens, http://www.sherco-auto.com/klean.htm

If you post up the brand and model number of your meter I will see if I can tell you how to get decent battery measurements.

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Old 05-06-2015, 12:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

Here's some info to understand egr error codes.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg egr valve.jpg (56.1 KB, 14 views)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf DTC 1404.pdf (97.5 KB, 11 views)

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Old 05-06-2015, 06:38 AM   #7
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Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

Thanks for all the info. I found a thread from 3 years ago where a member had the same issue and replaced the vacuum hose and it corrected the issue.

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=106989

Last night, I went ahead and got some new vacuum tubing and replaced both hoses, and I also bought a new EGR valve gasket. If the light comes on today again, I will replace the gasket tonight and try again tomorrow.

I looked over the DTC pdf file and when it reads circuit ***, is this referring to a circuit inside the EGR valve itself, or is it referring to wiring somewhere else in the car?

...
1997 SL2:
Hit by deer and sold off cheap

1999 SL1:
Bought in 12/2014, Totaled on 6/10/2015

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Old 05-06-2015, 07:35 AM   #8
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1998 SC2
Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

Internal circuit. That air inlet has absolutely no connection to the EGR or its function. The P1404 code is a closed voltage incorrect and can be caused by a failing electrical system, alternator/battery or carbon chunks in the valve. With these cars carbon chunks is the usual cause.

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Old 05-07-2015, 02:26 PM   #9
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Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

This is my multimeter

http://www.autozone.com/test-scan-an...ter/64472_0_0/

I changed both vacuum hoses and no return of SES light so far. However there may not have been enough start cycles to set it off. Tomorrow the Saturn will be back on road as I have today off, so we'll see what happens on way to work and back.

...
1997 SL2:
Hit by deer and sold off cheap

1999 SL1:
Bought in 12/2014, Totaled on 6/10/2015

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Old 05-07-2015, 02:48 PM   #10
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1998 SC2
Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

OK, Before you start the car in the morning check the outside temperature and measure the battery voltage at the terminal bolts. Unlatch the hood tonight so you can get it open without opening any doors. Need temperature and battery voltage.

Your EGR valve is electrically positioned and NOT vacuum positioned. The thread you linked was a generic definition of a code. I would suggest studiously avoiding any advice from parts stores relating to any code you get except the code number. I would suspect that you need one of these or this will turn into the continuing saga of the 1404 code.

http://www.amazon.com/Dorman-47007-S.../dp/B000CSZHA8 This gasket tends to solve the problem.

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Old 05-07-2015, 03:15 PM   #11
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1998 SC2
Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
OK, Before you start the car in the morning check the outside temperature and measure the battery voltage at the terminal bolts. Unlatch the hood tonight so you can get it open without opening any doors. Need temperature and battery voltage.

Your EGR valve is electrically positioned and NOT vacuum positioned. The thread you linked was a generic definition of a code. I would suggest studiously avoiding any advice from parts stores relating to any code you get except the code number. I would suspect that you need one of these or this will turn into the continuing saga of the 1404 code.

http://www.amazon.com/Dorman-47007-S.../dp/B000CSZHA8 This gasket tends to solve the problem.
Better price if you do not have Prime. http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...&jnid=2&jpid=0 Dorman 47007 is the part you want.

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Old 05-07-2015, 04:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

The fitment checker says the part wont fit the 99 SL1.

...
1997 SL2:
Hit by deer and sold off cheap

1999 SL1:
Bought in 12/2014, Totaled on 6/10/2015

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Old 05-07-2015, 05:25 PM   #13
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Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

The fitment checker is only checking the ford half of the package. Go to RockAuto and lookup Dorman 47007 or google it. It is a generic GM EGR gasket GM 12555896 <--fits all electric EGRs on Saturn.

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Old 05-07-2015, 05:34 PM   #14
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Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

server too busy duplicate.

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Old 05-07-2015, 07:58 PM   #15
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1998 SL2
Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
. I would suspect that you need one of these or this will turn into the continuing saga of the 1404 code.
I am going through this saga right now, weekly egr cleaning and it is getting annoying.

But the op is right in His first post. I recently swapped my egr valve and immediately noticed the transmission is less eager to downshift going down hill. After 250 miles the downshifts returned back along with the warm and friendly check engine light.

...
1998 - SL2 Plum - Auto - 120K miles recently aquired

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Old 05-07-2015, 09:09 PM   #16
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1998 SC2
Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

The transmission shifting and EGR operation is to some extent controlled by the TPS. Have you installed an aftermarket TPS by any chance? Don't rush out and buy one. Try the Dorman Klean Screen and see if that helps.

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Old 05-07-2015, 09:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

I have not. As far as the downshift going downhill, I just find it odd that I am hitting the brakes lightly and the PCM downshifts anyway. It just stands to reason that the PCM should be programmed that if it detects your foot on the brake, then it should not try to downshift the tranny. I guess I am too used to 5 speeds. Oh how I wish mine was a 5 speed!!!!

...
1997 SL2:
Hit by deer and sold off cheap

1999 SL1:
Bought in 12/2014, Totaled on 6/10/2015

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Old 05-07-2015, 09:35 PM   #18
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Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

Quote:
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.... I looked over the DTC pdf file and when it reads circuit ***, is this referring to a circuit inside the EGR valve itself, or is it referring to wiring somewhere else in the car?
From reviewing the explanations in the text, circuit *** refers to the connection between one terminal of the egr valve to whatever its connected to. The egr valve electrical connections are labeled A, B, C, D, and E. Circuit 639 (bottom wire in drawing) means the pink wire gets 12v power after the EGR fuse when the ignition switch is turned ON. 12v is applied thru circuit 639 to terminal E on the egr valve.

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Old 05-07-2015, 09:44 PM   #19
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Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

Quote:
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I have not. As far as the downshift going downhill, I just find it odd that I am hitting the brakes lightly and the PCM downshifts anyway. It just stands to reason that the PCM should be programmed that if it detects your foot on the brake, then it should not try to downshift the tranny. I guess I am too used to 5 speeds. Oh how I wish mine was a 5 speed!!!!
That link for the Dorman 47007 part is correct for your car.

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Old 05-07-2015, 09:50 PM   #20
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Default Re: EGR valve and idle question

Quote:
Originally Posted by nissandave View Post
I have not. As far as the downshift going downhill, I just find it odd that I am hitting the brakes lightly and the PCM downshifts anyway. It just stands to reason that the PCM should be programmed that if it detects your foot on the brake, then it should not try to downshift the tranny. I guess I am too used to 5 speeds. Oh how I wish mine was a 5 speed!!!!
It is not interested on you hitting the brake until the speed drops low enough, it just continues to downshift.

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