SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn Vue > Vue General
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-20-2005, 09:47 PM   #1
skijay
Senior Member
skijay is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Avon, CT
Posts: 1,115
 
Default My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

I am stopped on a slight incline in my driveway to get the mail. My right side of the VUE (03 2.2 5sp)was parked on ice and the left side was on dry pavement. I release the parking brake, shift into 1st gear and as I do the clutch / gas, the Low traction light comes on. I am not moving. I can feel the system "pulsate" and now I am barely moving. I stop, shift to Reverse and get off this patch of ice so all 4 wheels are on pavement.

Why did the VUE's traction control system not send power to the wheel that was on dry pavement? I am speculating it is because of the snow tires. Perhaps the TC "thought" the VUE had traction. .

For comparison, my SL2 automatic & TC/ABS, had no problem. The light flashes and I am on my way up the driveway. The SL2 has a new set of OEM Affinities.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to skijay's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help skijay reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
skijay is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 12-20-2005, 10:50 PM   #2
burnout
Master Member
burnout is on a distinguished road
 
burnout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Endwell, New York
Posts: 2,111
 
Wrench Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

The differential was the problem there. The traction control couldn't "send" power. What traction control does is reduce engine power when both wheels are slipping so you can steer. If the wheels aren't slipping, you regain steerage, and possibly get up a grade better. With one wheel on dry pavement however, the traction control couldn't do anything because of the differential effect. The wheel with the least traction just goes out of control, while the wheel WITH traction sits there (and spins). If you had a limited slip differential or a locking differential, the wheel with traction would have gotten power to pull you up.

Having traction control that actually 'sends' power to the wheel with grip would be very technical. I'm not even sure if there is such a system implemented on a FWD car.

Hope this helps, and I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong at any point in this.

...
'13 VW CC 2.0T
'99 Volvo S70 AWD

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to burnout's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help burnout reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
burnout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 12:19 AM   #3
D C
Senior Member
D C is on a distinguished road
 
D C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,564
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

You're close. There certainly systems that can and do send power to the wheel with traction. What this would require is a system to identify which wheel is spinning and apply the brake to that wheel. Traction control systems can reduce engine power through retarding the timing, cutting back on the throttle, and/or applying a brake to a spinning wheel. I don't believe the VUE has a traction control system that utilizes the brakes.

You're mostly correct on the differential, also. An open differential is designed to give equal torque to both wheels. So if one wheel is on ice and can't handle much torque, the wheel with traction doesn't get any torque either. There is some friction in the differential that allows some torque to be applied to the wheel with traction, thus the reason he was able to move somewhat.

(You did mis-state though that the wheel with traction spins )

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to D C's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help D C reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
D C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 08:13 AM   #4
skijay
Senior Member
skijay is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Avon, CT
Posts: 1,115
 
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

I appreciate the information. How come the SL2 can move off of the ice? Is it because it is an automatic and the TC system works better with an AT or perhaps the SL2's TC is a better system?

If I would of had the VTi & AWD and was in the same situation, would the AWD system kick in and get me off of the ice?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to skijay's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help skijay reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
skijay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 09:00 AM   #5
IMkenNY
Senior Member
IMkenNY is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,103
 
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

I believe the 2003 four cylinder traction control uses the anti lock brake to pulse brake the wheel that is slipping and thus transfers the power to the other tire as opposed to the TC on the new 3.5 V6 which used engine control.

I have had the opprutunity to drive a TC Vue and a AWD Vue through Buffalo winters and the AWD is superior to TC.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to IMkenNY's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help IMkenNY reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
IMkenNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 10:00 AM   #6
Tom92SCm
Master Member
Tom92SCm has a spectacular aura aboutTom92SCm has a spectacular aura about
 
Tom92SCm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,960
 

2004 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

Torque follows the path of least resistance in an open differential vehicle like the VUE. Ice is a very challenging situation, even for LSDs. If you had a Quaiffe differential in your VUE, you probably would have had the same problem unless you were able to apply the brakes as you worked in the throttle (difficult to do an a manual transmission).

The SL in a similar situation would have netted you the same results. Ice is ice.

The reason he was able to move off the ice was because gravity pulled him down the hill off the ice.

--Tom

...
Not a Saturn.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Tom92SCm's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Tom92SCm reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Tom92SCm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 11:14 AM   #7
runerx
Senior Member
runerx is on a distinguished road
 
runerx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Dayton OH
Posts: 1,114
 

2003 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

I don't thingk the VUEs system uses the brakes at all. It just reduces throttle input via teh throttle by wire. Some of the more expensive systems apply the brake to the slipping wheel and reduce the throttle to the point that even if only one wheel has traction (ive seen video of a SUV with only one wheel mounted) the vehicle will pull. It still uses all open differentials.
The best thing to increase traction is tires. As was said before ice is ice and unless you have an Ice tire, chains, or studs, tires dont work well. I ran lower presures (25 pounds in the front) last winter during the really bad snow storm we had here in Ohio (17 in.) and it helps some but that was mostly on snow.

Dave

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to runerx's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help runerx reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
runerx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 01:00 PM   #8
vue-vtec
Advanced Member
vue-vtec is on a distinguished road
 
vue-vtec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 630
 
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

Because both the TC (and the AWD) systems in these vehicles are basically a joke. GM takes the el-cheapo, Mickey-Mouse route, and makes something that just barely works under ideal conditions. In the "real world" neither one of these "systems" is worth what you pay for it.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to vue-vtec's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help vue-vtec reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
vue-vtec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 01:31 PM   #9
jman
Member
jman is on a distinguished road
 
jman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 207
 

2004 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

I am kinda disenchanted with all this traction control, awd, crap. In my personal opinion its all pretty useless. The only thing that is really worth it in my opinion is a part time 4x4 configuration. I choose the Vue cause of the economy and size combo. But I don't expect it to do any more then my front wheel drive camry did prior.

I was set on buying a frontier or xterra. But when it came down to it, I couldn't justify the extra costs for the rare times I'd actually make use of its extra utility.

Buy your self a set of spider spikes and be done with it.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to jman's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help jman reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
jman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 07:37 PM   #10
Ghostrider
Advanced Member
Ghostrider is on a distinguished road
 
Ghostrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 565
 
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

Quote:
Originally Posted by vue-vtec
Because both the TC (and the AWD) systems in these vehicles are basically a joke. GM takes the el-cheapo, Mickey-Mouse route, and makes something that just barely works under ideal conditions. In the "real world" neither one of these "systems" is worth what you pay for it.
I really like my Vue, and hate to talk bad about it, but this is a true statement. If you have the AWD system and were in the same situation, the only difference would be that both of the right side tires on ice would be spinning. Neither the front or back diffs are limited slip, and the AWD doesn't even have TC. Both systems seem to work well in low traction situations where torque is fairly evenly balanced left/right, but there is no way to recover from just one tire spinning per axle.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ghostrider's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ghostrider reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ghostrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 09:40 PM   #11
D C
Senior Member
D C is on a distinguished road
 
D C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,564
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostrider
I really like my Vue, and hate to talk bad about it, but this is a true statement. If you have the AWD system and were in the same situation, the only difference would be that both of the right side tires on ice would be spinning. Neither the front or back diffs are limited slip, and the AWD doesn't even have TC. Both systems seem to work well in low traction situations where torque is fairly evenly balanced left/right, but there is no way to recover from just one tire spinning per axle.
I disagree.

Guess what. The traction control system in the VUE is no different than it is in MOST every other car on the road. Very few cars that I have seen use a brake-intervention traction control. Especially relatively low priced cars.

I've actually been very impressed with the VUE's traction control. It allows a significant amount of wheel slip, which is a good thing for maximizing acceleration, and isn't overly intrusive. AWD doesn't have traction control because it doesn't need it. If you have your foot in the throttle so far that you have all 4 wheels spinning you're probably either somewhere you'll get stuck anyhow, or you're driving so aggressively that you'll probably end up in a ditch.

Expecting a traction control or AWD system to make your car accelerate quickly with one front and one rear wheel on ice is unreasonable. Even that big ol pickup truck with 4x4 on the side won't do any better if it's in 4WD. Why? Because it's unless ordered otherwise, it has open differentials front and rear, just like a VUE.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to D C's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help D C reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
D C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 10:07 PM   #12
05vueblue
Member
05vueblue is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 470
 

2000 SL1
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

Im confused, even tho mine is a AWD one time in the street in front of my house I nailed the gas and left 2 small marks from the front tires. Why would it leave 2 marks if it wasn't limited slip in the front? Yeah the VUEs awd isnt the greatest, but I think it does well for what I need. I think the the MDX has a dif lock button and true 4x4s will lock difs in 4 low. I know my dads 2500 V10 Dodge ram will lock all 4. Ive watched it pull a 35ft tripple axel camper out of a muddy field.

Ture TC is a system like my late BMW had (DSC). I believe it would use the brakes or electronically lock the read end. It would do it instantally with wheel slip or if the back end started to slip out when corning hard, it is an amazing system, but it was a 40k car.....I wouldnt expect that technology in a 27k suv...

I say the VUE is fine the way it is as long as it doesnt break....if we dont like it we should of done better research before we bought one, heck they been around since 02.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 05vueblue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 05vueblue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
05vueblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 10:51 PM   #13
OhioVueBoy
Master Member
OhioVueBoy has a spectacular aura aboutOhioVueBoy has a spectacular aura aboutOhioVueBoy has a spectacular aura about
 
OhioVueBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N. Bethesda, Maryland (DC) (Dayton Ohio Native)
Posts: 9,295
 

2002 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

Quote:
Originally Posted by 05vueblue
Im confused, even tho mine is a AWD one time in the street in front of my house I nailed the gas and left 2 small marks from the front tires. Why would it leave 2 marks if it wasn't limited slip in the front?
I've left 2 marks before, with my FWD4 VUE (waay back when I had the Deulers... I won't do that any more). If you break them loose just right, it'll spin them both enough to make some marks and then one will hook up more than the other.
~D.J.~

...
2012 Mercedes Benz C250 Sport Sedan
2008 smart fortwo Passion Coupe 8/28/2008 - 3/12/2012
2002 VUE FWD4m - Gone but not forgotten. 5/14/2002 - 10/31/2011

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OhioVueBoy's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OhioVueBoy reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OhioVueBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2005, 11:18 PM   #14
D C
Senior Member
D C is on a distinguished road
 
D C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,564
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

Quote:
Originally Posted by 05vueblue
Im confused, even tho mine is a AWD one time in the street in front of my house I nailed the gas and left 2 small marks from the front tires. Why would it leave 2 marks if it wasn't limited slip in the front?
An open differential doesn't mean that only one wheel gets torque. It means that both wheels get the same amount of torque (or fairly close because there's friction in the system). So if both tires are on the same sort of surface and the torque is about the same, then both wheels can spin with the same relative ease.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to D C's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help D C reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
D C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2005, 05:39 PM   #15
jmandeville
Member
jmandeville is on a distinguished road
 
jmandeville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 187
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

D.C.

My hat is off to you. I can tell you really understand what an open diff. is really doing.

Are you guys certain about the VUE not using the brakes for traction control regarding the VUE.

Attached is a link about this....

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53540

Thanks,

Jack

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to jmandeville's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help jmandeville reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
jmandeville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2005, 09:24 PM   #16
wolfman
Super Member
wolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of light
 
wolfman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,066
 
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

Allow me to be the first (perhaps the only) one to point out... If your traction control or ABS is kicking in on a regular basis while you are driving, YOU are driving too fast for conditions! ABS and Traction Control (as well as AWD) are systems designed to throw you a life ring if you occasionally push your luck and/or the vehicle a bit too far. They are NOT designed or meant to keep the Titanic afloat!

...
Old Saturns never die, people KILL them, so check your damn oil!
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." Albert Einstein

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to wolfman's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help wolfman reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
wolfman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2005, 11:17 PM   #17
runerx
Senior Member
runerx is on a distinguished road
 
runerx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Dayton OH
Posts: 1,114
 

2003 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: My VUE's lack of traction, "Traction Control"

The only thing a open diff does if allow for a differential in speed between the two wheels. Otherwise the vehicle would drag one tire at the same speed as the other during turns. When you spin the tires due to a lack of traction, this is exagerated to the point of the wheel with traction sitting still and the wheel with no grip spinning as fast as the drivers right foot tells it to. The only way to transfer power in this type of system is to brake the spinning wheel causing the wheel with grip to begin to turn again. All a locked differetial does is cause two or all four wheels to turn at the same speed depending on the system. LSD allow of slip up a certain amount before they either mechanically lock up or begin to drive equally side to side VIA a viscous fluid. The VUEs system is more to deal with a momentary lapse of reason or brain fart than it is to trail blaze. Common sense will get you one hell of a long way in one of these.

Dave

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to runerx's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help runerx reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
runerx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Service Traction" - "Service ESC" comes up billwill Aura General 12 12-10-2013 05:14 PM
Traction control? Saturndude82 S-Series General 10 07-25-2008 10:07 AM
Traction Control XRedJar Ion Tech 8 08-11-2006 02:26 PM
New PCM, "Traction Active" light now stays on bryan_johnson S-Series Tech 5 10-03-2005 05:01 PM
How does "Traction Control" work? Mekugi_Ana Ion General 9 01-18-2004 07:14 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:36 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.