I hate walking home - 1998 sl2 error 341

[engineer100]

It is a long story how I got this car but the gas mileage is three times better than my truck! So I fixed up the car and started to drive it, going down the road at 50 it died – just dead, no spark. Error code 341 showed up so I replaced the can sensor. It ran fine for about a month, then dies again the same way. So I put it in a snow drift and waited for spring. Pulled the cam sensor and found it was open circuited (should be about 800 ohms), replaced it with another new one, 6 weeks and it will not start – no spark. Replace both coil towers, works fine about 50% of the time the other times dead. Replace the PCM no difference. Replace the fuel pump and fuel regulator, got a week out of that.

It always dies on error 341 but some times it does have a code 420 for the catylic Converter. One other odd point is when I come back the next day and the car is cool it starts right up and purrs like a kitten. When it runs it is a delite to drive.

I don’t have any more ideas and my ego is shot! Got any ideas?

[fdryer]

The P0341 is for a cam position error that Saturn S-series cars don't have and it usually refers to misfiring problems from ignition wires and plugs. Since the coils were replaced the only thing left is the ignition module (and wires) that may be corroded and needs some wirebrushing or a junk yard replacement. Your reference to the 'can position', would that mean the crank position sensor (CPS)? The one behind and above the starter and mounted with one 10mm bolt? The cps must work before the ignition system can operate as it is needed by the PCM to run the fuel pump, ignition system, and injector pulses. If you lost the spark again it can be the cps or the ignition module. Lack of spark during engine cranking usually means the cps failed but sometimes the ignition module fails with the same symptoms - no spark.

Check the How-to library's 2nd and 3rd posts about the engine coolant temperature sensor (ECTS) failure if the original one is still on the engine and replace it. It can have a adverse effect on overall engine running if it failed.

[engineer100]

Thanks, as you might have guessed I have been playing with this for some time. I have replaced the ECTS, the car ran smoother – when it ran.
I was referring to the CPS, I thought the “C” was “cam”. That has been replaced (several times), and the ignition modules have been replaced with junkyard replacements. Each time something is replaced I get a few weeks of joy, then I walk.

How important are the sparkplug wires? I have replaced the plugs but not the wires, would just weak wires cause a complete ignition failure?

[fdryer]

No, worn plug wires won't kill an engine but will cause misfiring. The easy way to test plug wires is at night in the dark with a spray bottle of water sprayed onto the wires while the engine's idling. Good wires won't allow arcing, a breakdown of the high voltage insulation but worn wires will arc almost immediately when sprayed with some water as if in the rain.

The lack of spark has to be tested at the moment the engine dies to isolate an ignition problem from a fuel/pump problem. A poor ground for the fuel pump has disabled a fuel pump but was only found when it was replaced on the second attempt!? The owner was looking over the mechanic's shoulder when he spotted the corroded ground for the fuel pump connection. The 12v power was tested good all the way to the pump but it was thought the pump was faulty when it was the ground, corroded from possible road salt. Fixed! Not saying that this is your problem but you need to stay on top of this problem and try to separate the fuel system and ignition system, each can cause a dead/erratic engine running problem.

[OldNuc]

Originally Posted by engineer100

Thanks, as you might have guessed I have been playing with this for some time. I have replaced the ECTS, the car ran smoother – when it ran.
I was referring to the CPS, I thought the “C” was “cam”. That has been replaced (several times),

Where are you getting these replacement CPS from?

Originally Posted by engineer100

and the ignition modules have been replaced with junkyard replacements. Each time something is replaced I get a few weeks of joy, then I walk.

Are you referring to the actual coil packs or the Ignition Control Module that they attach to?

Originally Posted by engineer100

How important are the sparkplug wires? I have replaced the plugs but not the wires, would just weak wires cause a complete ignition failure?

Wires are critical. Usually do not cause a total shutdown though, just a bunch of misfire codes.

When the car up and dies do you get any codes?

[engineer100]

1) I have replaced the fuel pump/fuel press regulator, but I did not check the ground – where would I find the chassis connection?

2) The CPS came from AutoZone the first one I put in worked for about a few months, then the car died and was put away for winter. When I checked it as I started playing with it in the spring it was open circuited so I returned it and they gave me another. I have added connections to the wire from the CPS to the PCM so I can disconnect it to test resistance; it is about 800 ohms what the book says it should be.

3) When the car dies I get no code or code 341

4) The last time it died on me, last Thursday, I called my wife and went home. The next morning on my way to work I stopped and it started and ran fine. That night I had my wife drive me over and it started and died then would not start at all. I wiggled the spark plug wires and it started and drove home without incident. Two days later I was going to try check the sparkplug wires: it started and rev.ed to about 1500 then went back down to idle rpm and died, it did this several times. I sanded the coil sparkplug connections and the inside of the wires and it started and ran fine.

5) I don’t get any misfiring when the car is running, it either runs great or it will die and not start. It seems when I do something, anything, it works – for a while then returns to its dead state. I know it is just one simple thing, I just don’t know what that thing is.

My wife is starting to wonder about my mental state because I won’t let go!!

[OldNuc]

I am going to jump to the conclusion that you have not replaced the ICM as you have not mentioned it. Also, cheap carbon+fiberglass wires have a very short service life. A nice new set of engine specific mid priced non-whizzbang racer wires would be a very good move.

You installed a series connector in the CPS circuit, how did you make the connections to the standing wiring and what type of connector is it?

On the 98 SC the fuel pump ground is in the left rear body ground splice pack. Its under the package shelf. Crawl in the trunk and look up.

[samsr]

You may want to check the ICM ground while you are at it. The pad on the engine where it mounts should be clean. No corrosion. Just sand it down with a scotch brite pad until you get to aluminum. Also scrub the back of the ICM. The ICM is what the coils mount to.

[OldNuc]

There is no electrical contact to the back of the ICM. Its just a heat sink. Take it up and look at the dirt marks.

[engineer100]

Slow down guys, the last car I really worked on had a distributer and a carburetor!

ICM I’m guessing that is a Ignition Control Module, if that guess is correct I’d again guess that it is the base of the spark coil, sounds like what you are talking about. The junkyard module came with that circuit board and heat sink attached to the coils. (OK I just read the other two posts, I guessed correctly)

I installed a set of spade connectors and 18 gauge wire from just above the CPS connector (soldered the connection) to just below the PCM also soldered. – and yes I did find out there is a polarity to the CPS!

Something eat my ground splice pack – it is gone! After some wiggling I got in the truck, and I’m not the first body to be in that truck – new speakers and random splices. But I did not find what I would think of as a grounding block, that I could see from inside the trunk (The second time I crawled in I figured out I could lay down the back seat, much easier!) I did not remove the shelf material above the steel stamping. I’ve got wires from the rear lights coming up and over then combining and going down into the left strut mount.

When I bought the car it came with a Chilton manual in the trunk, maybe I should have suspected, but it does not give a location for the ground block.

[OldNuc]

The location I gave for the ground block is from the 98 FSM. It should be under there. They rarely lie. I will look in the AM and bring a camera.

Yes, the ICM is the part the coils sit on. By any chance did you remove the coils and clean the 2 connectors/coil under there? The coils swing up from the plug end and thee is a tab on the far end.

Eventually those spade connections will give you grief.

[OldNuc]

I apparently can not read. Its on top of the package shelf, under the cardboard cover. It should be in good shape anyway unless there are signs of water on the cardboard.

Ran out of edit time also...

Have you replaced the sparkplug wires? What brand of plugs do you have in there?

And, when you replaced the PCM did you do a crankshaft relearn? This is one of those things that you may or may not have to do to make it run reliably.

[engineer100]

I thought the PCM was programmed, How do you "relearn" and what does it learn?

[OldNuc]

The program has to match the year, engine, transmission, options. That is the easy part. The PCM also has the physical location of the notches in the crank that the CPS detects learned. This is where the #4 spark signal comes in. There is a bit that should be reset in the PCM and then the engine started and run at 3000 to 4000 RPM until the SES light quits flashing. It may self reset if it detects and error when you first install a J/Y PCM or it may not. The FSM does not provide a way to do this without resetting the bit. It does make quite an issue of not swapping PCMs to trouble shoot because you will have other issues. If you can get access to the high dollar scanners you can reset the bit. With the 341 and CPS issues you are having I am wondering if this is not actually the cause of the problem.

[engineer100]

What ever happen to the days when the most sophisticated instrument that you owned had a tube you stuck up the exhaust!

When you say “high dollar scanner” I assume you are not talking about a couple hundred dollar hand held error code reader. Anyway I still have the original PCM that I switched out for the one that is in there now (the switch did not change the problem). I’ll clean the terminals on the base of the spark coil today, and I did mist the plug wires and they didn’t arc (I like the Saturn’s driving lights but they make it hard to be dark in a garage!)

Thanks for your help

[fdryer]

Originally Posted by engineer100

What ever happen to the days when the most sophisticated instrument that you owned had a tube you stuck up the exhaust!

When you say “high dollar scanner” ....

When you bought the '98 you went from the old exhaust probe emissions detection to electronics in the car that rats you out before you can even think of state inspection!? Since '96 our cars have OBD II that self checks for emissions (using the O2 sensors and eliminating the tailpipe probes) and the other sensors needed to run the engine properly - practically a self contained emissions inspection running 24/7 whenever the engine is running! True closed loop engine/emission control and the SES to alert the driver of almost any malfunction of the engine/transmission/emission hardware/software controls/programs. No more need for the station tailpipe probe - your own car's electronics will tell you if it fails emissions! All you need is a scanner/reader to display the codes, from the generic ones like Autozone uses to approximately $300 or better ones that will read the specific GM/Ford/Chrysler/mercedes-Benz/Jaguar/etc. 'wrench' codes. Emissions codes will be under generic listings but the wrench codes are separate and have their own light on the instrument panel requiring better scanner/readers.

[OldNuc]

Originally Posted by engineer100

What ever happen to the days when the most sophisticated instrument that you owned had a tube you stuck up the exhaust!

When you say “high dollar scanner” I assume you are not talking about a couple hundred dollar hand held error code reader. Anyway I still have the original PCM that I switched out for the one that is in there now (the switch did not change the problem). I’ll clean the terminals on the base of the spark coil today, and I did mist the plug wires and they didn’t arc (I like the Saturn’s driving lights but they make it hard to be dark in a garage!)

Thanks for your help

I would stick the original PCM back in there and when you first turn it on just go to on and don't crank. Should go through the bulb check and stop with the SES, battery, oil, and DRL lit. When you start it up the SES and the others should go out. If you have a flashing SES light it wants to relearn the crankshaft position. Increase the rpm to 3000 to 4000 and hold it there, should take about 10 -> 20 seconds or less. The PCM is satisfied when the SES goes off.

Like fdryer says, times have changed. There are a large group of diagnostic codes that are make/model specific also. The mid priced scanners, 250 or so will access these. The device control settings are there also but those tools cost more. If you do this work for a living or are bound and determined to be self sufficent and never want to darken the dealers door then you night be justified in having these tools. But, for most people paying a decent dealer to give you the information is the cheap way. The problem with OBD-2 and all later systems (CAN etc) is that the control program is encrypted in the PCM. So, even if you extract it, which is not a trivial task, you can not do anything with this info. It is encrypted because the tail pipe sniffers in CA noticed all of the chips for the OBD-I cars and promptly dreamed up OBD-II. As the feds are committed to follow CA there you go. If you like OBD-II you will just love OBD-III, go google it.

[engineer100]

I switched the two PCMs and when I turned on the key the SES did not flash when either unit was in. Every nowand then I do get error 420 - O2 sensor out of range but I doubt that would shut down the car – I get it driving down the road and the car continues without any difficulties.

Back to error 341: what sensor(s) input would set this error code? My little Chilton book shows codes up to P1696 will all those points be monitored so if I do not see the error code I can eliminate that as a source of my problem? Right now the car is working fine (idle a little high but I haven’t had it on long enough to heat up to temp.) It is hard to fix a car that isn’t broke! The only thing I can see is to chase error 341.

[fdryer]

DTC P0340 Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Circuit
DTC P0341 Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Performance
DTC P0342 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Low Input
DTC P0343 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit High Input
DTC P0344 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Intermittent

None of those have anything to do with S-series since a cam position sensor doesn't exist but is implied with the waste spark ignition system. It boils down to the ignition module, plug wires and plugs - any that would cause misfires and detected as an error in cam position. Cleaned ignition module, wirebrushed mounting bolts, new plug wires, cleaned and gapped plugs (copper only), should reset the P0341. All electrical connectors polished clean for good electrical conductivity.

[bumpdraft]

Originally Posted by engineer100

It is a long story ...going down the road at 50 it died – just dead, no spark. Error code 341 showed up ... Got any ideas?

Take this into consideration. My dad's 1998 SW2

My dad replaced the CPS several times, and still got this:


It was his came-with-the-car-in-1998 spark plug wires that were bad…or, it was a bunch of bad aftermarket CPS…

When he put in the new spark plug wires, he routed them logically, but not according to the car’s design. The car would run for a while with the spark plug wires going to the wrong terminals, but the engine would just plain die on him.

Once he hooked-up the plug wires properly, the car ran flawlessly. This all happened over a year ago.

What's amazing is the car would even run with the plug wires going to the wrong terminals...and it ran well...until it stopped.