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Old 11-23-2008, 07:55 PM   #1
les1234
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Default Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

Since May 2008, my 2004 ION has been experiencing every 2 weeks, intermittent no start, but starts generally in 10, sometimes 20 minutes. This unreliability is stressful resulting with me, my wife and children being late for work, buses, appointments, church, etc. I have read through many of the existing posts relating to this problem, and the solution from Saturn Fans website, appears to be either changing the ignition switch or using a PLJX GM Self Learning Passlock Override. Many posts indicate that changing the ignition switch is a temporary solution, and needs to be changed every year or two.
  1. Can the Tamper mode starting prevention be reprogrammed for say 0 or 1 min instead of 10 minutes?
  2. How well does a PLJX GM Self Learning Passlock Override system work? What are the negative effects of using this device? Does anyone have experience installing this and how difficult is it for a non technical person to install?
Thanks profusely in advance for any advice regarding the above questions.
Les

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Old 11-23-2008, 08:17 PM   #2
2006 ion2
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

I am 99.99% sure that there is no reprogramming the tamper interval, can you describe the theory of the override you speak of, I haven't heard this mentioned before and this intrigues me. These cars are weird, for many of the "common" issues, there exceptions to the rule, some cars never have an occurrence of the ignition switch problem, or get it fixed once and never have an issue, some cars go through a set of brakes a year, some go 50-60 thousand miles (more or less an accepted normal) between brakes, tires seem to be my car's hunger (though this is mostly my fault), it's the same thing with the sway bar bushings, some go though a set a year, some never need a second set, honestly I think quality control is as much to blame as other components within the system are to blame, or in some cases, driving habits.

...
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Old 11-23-2008, 08:41 PM   #3
les1234
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

Thanks for the quick reply. One quick correction to my original post - it is a 2005 (not 2004) Ion (I can't seem to find the edit button to correct this). In response to how the bypass works, I found the following information on various websites (including Saturn Fans):

In normal operation, the key turns the ignition lock cylinder. The Passlock sensor monitors the position of the lock cylinder and relays an analog Passlock signal to the body control module (BCM). The BCM determines the validity of the Passlock signal, then sends a password to the powertrain control module (PCM). When the PCM receives the correct password, it allows the fuel injectors to operate and the vehicle starts normally. Passlock communication between the PCM and BCM takes place over the Class 2 serial data line (CKT 1807). Passlock talks to the BCM (body control module) which sends a password to the ECM (engine control module). Since the BCM/ECM is tied to the whole running of the car, there is no short way to circumvent this.

The intermittent no-start symptoms would seem to point to a communication problem either between the Passlock module and the BCM or between the BCM and die PCM. P1626 stores when the Passlock theft deterrent system is enabled and the fuel decision point has been reached (engine cranking). At that point the PCM was unable to establish communication with the BCM and did not receive a valid password before reaching the fuel enable decision point. Once this occurs, the system goes into Tamper mode and starting is prevented for a full 10 minutes. This explains why the vehicle will usually start if it's allowed to sit for a while.

A bypass is required to interrupt PASSLOCK for remote start applications. It is done by grounding the system to allow it to start, then re establish it for security usage. This Passlock Bypass Module is designed to provide a proper coded pulse to open the fuel rail passlock injector cut off circuit. The output from an alarm/remote starter would then shut down the pulse, once it has detected the engine has engaged, and preserve the integrity of the passlock system. That is it's designed purpose. This is a self learning, resistor sensing and self adjusting module. Once the VATS/PASSLOCK wires have been tapped, you would press the program button to learn, and it does. The car should then allow start with any hardware store key.

-Les

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Old 11-23-2008, 09:00 PM   #4
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

I think the problems with this are obvious, lack of security, plus these only interrupt the passlock for a remote starter, so wiring it for anything else is using it to blatantly bypass the decent security system these cars have from the factory, I'd just replace the switch and hope for the best. also, I don't agree with the documentation's assessment of the problem, there is no communication error, there's a defective switch, thus lack of communication, an error implies one of the computerized systems is defective, where it's simply the switch. You can try a passlock relearn, depending on what's actually wrong, this could clear it up, but you probably have a bad switch.

...
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Old 12-03-2008, 03:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

I've got the same car (diff. year though) and the same problem. After scouring this and other forums I'm convinced the Passlock system is triggered improperly after a change in the weather (cold mornings).

I've read several accounts of people replacing the ignition switch repeatedly, and don't fancy going down that road.

I am very close to purchasing a PLJX passlock override. (Only $23.) I realize this would leave our car more vulnerable to theft -- but I don't care. I'd rather have the car stolen than have it not start when I need it.

I hesitate only because in all the forum and blog posts I've searched, I have yet to hear a single success story.

Also, I'm wondering about the feasibility of doing this myself. It looks dead simple -- only one wire needs to be cut -- but how hard is it to get to the wires coming from the ignition cylinder? Is it all under the hood or would I need to get under the dash?

Thanks in advance for any insights.

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Old 12-03-2008, 03:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

first off, I DO NOT advocate bypassing passlock, nor do I think this is a solution to this problem, passlock is only part of the equation, this is a very complicated circuit, as without passlocks approval, no start, then your ignition switch has to say go, I think it is not a passlock approval problem, but an ignition switch contact problem, which would be confirmed by people having success with degreasing them and them working. what a possible solution to this is the gay ignition toggle switch option

...
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

Quote:
Originally Posted by les1234 View Post
  1. Can the Tamper mode starting prevention be reprogrammed for say 0 or 1 min instead of 10 minutes?
  2. How well does a PLJX GM Self Learning Passlock Override system work? What are the negative effects of using this device? Does anyone have experience installing this and how difficult is it for a non technical person to install?
A-NO, its permanently programmed within the BCM as a standard precaution to have the timeout long enough to deliberately discourage the common thief from sitting around and waiting for the security light to go off before stealing your Ion.

B-As one site selling this item says, "..of course, there are no guarantees when using this module this way..." and warns that only 90% of cars will work and depends on the ability of the car to turn over........ So if your Ion won't even turn over this bypass won't work. And this would be the perfect opportunity to sell you the remote starter as part of the upgrade to a complete system instead of just buying the bypass module. There's also a warning of "All sales are final on bypass modules". The very negative effects of miswiring this bypass, no matter how easy it may seem, is total lock out of starting and running your car, period. Undoing the mess may work but you accept all risks when attempting this on your own. Reputable aftermarket shops assume these risks and are well versed in the miswiring mistakes making them professionals. They eat their mistakes but if you make one who do fall back on? Saturn? They'll charge you for repairs just like anyone else.

The reason no one can say they've done successful personal bypassing of Passlock might be the complex electronics involved and if successful may not want to find out if doing other cars that an unsuccessful installation would lead to problems not anticipated. Its easy to be the 'armchair quarterback' but a lot harder when you're confronted with a wiring nightmare that is Passlock. I'm supposed to be an electronics technician and when remote starting was given to me as a gift I was very glad that I didn't have to install it. I read the installation manual and its a nightmare for all but the person doing this in his sleep.

For anyone even thinking of bypassing Passlock, it would be strongly advised to have a working diagram of GM's anti-theft system otherwise its just plain foolishness thinking its going to be easy to bypass this system. Replace the ignition switch.

Last edited by fdryer; 12-03-2008 at 07:27 PM..

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Old 12-03-2008, 08:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

+1, I have been trusted to repair the army's best, most complicated, and most expensive countermeasures and flight control systems, and instruments in the army's inventory, but there isn't enough info or equipment for passlock available to the general public for me to mess with it, and from what is available, to me, there is no reason to think that this bypass is the solution, that would be like thinking the software is responsible for your computer not turning on when you push the power button, but 9 times out of 10, it's the switch not contacting and completing the circuit. Plus, Ignition switches are designed to be tamper resistant, especially the ones in these cars, which makes me leary when people bring up rewiring it.

...
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:29 PM   #9
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

The PSB from saturn states to replace the ignition switch first, it this does not correct the concern the second part of the PSB is to replace the BCM and reprogram with most recent software
This PSB only seems to have the no start condtion at temps of 3 degrees C down to approax minus 5.

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Old 12-03-2008, 11:22 PM   #10
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

it's a TSB, and if these things are failing at 23 degrees Fahrenheit, the grease must freeze in a less than conductive manner in between the contacts, thus no electrical continuity, having nothing to do with passlock, the second TSB deals with a passlock problem, which would not have to do with the cold. how did this design make it past the prototype stage? and what idiot picked a grease that chose a grease that freezes at such a high temperature.

...
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:09 AM   #11
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Idea Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

Dealing with this no start issue, I have had it happen to me a handful of times in the last couple months. Although, I did order a new ignition switch from Rock Auto quite cheap, I have not installed it yet...

But I believe I have found a way to get passed this issue without the need of replacement. I have done this for the past week and have not had a problem starting the car on the first try...

All you have to do is get in and turn the key to the ON (not Start) position for about 3-5 seconds until the Security light goes out. Once the light goes out, then you can start the car.

This may or may not work 100% of the time, but for me so far it has been 100% effective. It seems that whenever its cold, for whatever reason, there is a delay the BCM receiving the passlock signal, and therefore if you just try to start right away, the car attempts to be started before the passlock security signal is received/processed, which causes the car to not start.

For those of you that are having this problem, I will be interested to see if this works for you as well.

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Old 12-13-2008, 12:36 AM   #12
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

I took my 2004 ION 3 in because of the interlock issue right after I bought it used (almost a year ago) and they replaced the switch with a new one that is supposed to solve the interlock problems. He told me it was in the recall announcements.

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Old 12-13-2008, 12:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 ion2 View Post
... I'd just replace the switch and hope for the best. also, I don't agree with the documentation's assessment of the problem, there is no communication error, there's a defective switch, thus lack of communication, an error implies one of the computerized systems is defective, where it's simply the switch. You can try a passlock relearn, depending on what's actually wrong, this could clear it up, but you probably have a bad switch.

HOPE for the best? The sensor is a crappy design that has not been improved. Why put a "defective" switch back in?

Without tapping into the comm link and monitoring it you have no idea if there is a communication error. Insisting it's the switch in all cases is silly. I sure hope you don't apply that myopic view when your are repairing "the army's best, most complicated, and most expensive countermeasures and flight control systems". The TSB to replace the BCM would certainly indicate there are issues. They replaced mine already (didn't say why) when I took it in for the cam position sensor seal recall.

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Old 12-13-2008, 10:22 PM   #14
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

I know there can be a problem with the BCM, but the fact that most of them are just the switch implies that there is no comm issue (in most cases). Also, it's the grease, not the sensor (once again, in most cases)

...
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Old 12-18-2008, 04:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

My 03 is doing this again.

When it is very cold, it will not want to start, it will take about 2-3 minutes of messing with it to get it start.

I replaced the switch last spring, and it was totally fine, but now it is acting up again.

The old switch had grease oozing all over it, thats why it wouldn't make the contact.

Now I think the new switch is bad again.

They never improved anything with the switch, I looked at both parts they were identical.

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Old 12-22-2008, 11:32 AM   #16
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

JH6, I also have a 2003 ION that I repalced the switch in 2/07 and now is acting up again. Saturn dealer says if you replaced the switch once already, the recommendation is to now look at the BCM. But if it is the BCM, I think it would fail regardless of weather, where my switch is failing due to weather or temperature. I'm interested to know of your success (or anyone else's) with the second switch replacement. Thanks.

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Old 12-26-2008, 01:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

Apparently, it doesn't have to be freezing for this to happen. Mine did it once last winter (on a day that WAS below freezing), but started doing it this fall in temps as warm as upper 40's. Took it in to the dealership and described the problem, the service mgr. nodded and said it was probably going to show a code of B-something (and I'm sorry, but I can't remember the rest of the code - it's on my service receipt at home). It did, they replaced the ignition switch, reprogrammed, and all is good again.

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Old 01-19-2009, 02:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

I am having the same problem with the ignition lock as apparently many other Saturn owners. I started by calling the local Saturn dealership to find out how much money they wanted me to pay them to fix this problem that they caused by using faulty parts. $171.83 was the amount quoted to me. Obviously I would like to do anything in my power to ensure Saturn doesn't get a single dime more from me. I called the customer service line (800-553-6000) to inquire about the reasoning behind not issuing a recall. I was given the same line about it not being a safety issue. I hope they remind me that it wasn't a safety issue when I'm attacked because I have to sit in a parking lot for 20 minutes alone because the car doesn't start. I was told by Jennifer at Saturn customer service that if enough people complain to Saturn, a recall may be issued. In the event of a recall, anyone who paid for this repair would be reimbursed. I urge everyone who has ever had this problem to call Saturn at 800-553-6000 to complain. When I called, I chose the option regarding recalls from their main menu. If each person who has had this problem calls, maybe Saturn will finally be held responsible for their mistake.

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Old 01-19-2009, 03:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

Mine is still under warranty so I'm not out any money, but I can understand the frustration of others, since this is obviously a pretty common problem among the ignition switches, and Saturn is pretty much saying, "Oh, well".

If it's any consolation, be glad you don't own one of the 240,000 Nissan trucks that are being recalled because an air bag may not deploy if it is too cold out.

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Old 02-05-2009, 12:56 PM   #20
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Mad Re: Intermittent No Start 2004 Ion

I called Saturn at the number posted. When said that I felt Saturn should issue a recall, I was referred to the U.S. Department of Transportation Vehicle Safety Hotline. I just called them and filed a complaint. I encourage others experiencing the intermittent no-crank no-start to do the same.

1-888-327-4236

I am quite aggravated that this known issue has not been taken more seriously by Saturn.

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