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Old 05-13-2018, 06:53 PM   #1
fdryer
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Default Keyless Ignition killing People

Weaned from using a key, drivers have left cars running in garages, spewing exhaust into homes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/b...xide-toll.html

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Old 05-14-2018, 01:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: Keyless Ignition killing People

Thatís amazing..

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Old 05-14-2018, 04:22 PM   #3
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Default Re: Keyless Ignition killing People

I don't think you can blame this on keyless ignition as much as stupidity.

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Old 05-17-2018, 02:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: Keyless Ignition killing People

It's not much different than forgetting to remove the keys from the ignition switch, other than there's no physical item to put in a purse/pocket.

The driver has to remember to push the button to start the vehicle; they should make an effort to add pushing the button again as part of a routine.

While I don't have a garage, I did momentarily forget to shut my current car off a few times during the first week I drove it. After I opened the driver's door, started to get out and heard the engine running, I knew what I forgot to do. I never walked away and left the car unattended while the engine ran. Now, hitting the stop button is part of my shut-down routine.

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Old 05-17-2018, 04:55 PM   #5
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Default Re: Keyless Ignition killing People

I read this part and was shocked
Quote:
Mr. Schaub is among more than two dozen people killed by carbon monoxide nationwide
Then I kept reading

Quote:
since 2006 after a keyless-ignition vehicle was inadvertently left running in a garage.
2006 is 12 years ago.

So, averaging two people a year? For me, that fits into the freak accident category.

Here's a 1972 study, well before keyless

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/do...JPH.62.11.1463
Quote:
This paper presents data suggesting that over 500 Americans die each year from carbon monoxide poisoning because their vehicles are defective due to deterioration, damage, or poor automotive design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTS350
I don't think you can blame this on keyless ignition as much as stupidity.
I get what you are saying and agree to some extent, but it is really easy to get distracted and miss something, even if it is routine. I came to work yesterday without my wallet.

My normal routine at work is to turn off the car, pocket the key and exit. One time, I had to sneeze or something, put the keys on my lap (where I knew I would remember, and could not get up without them jingling) and hurriedly grabbed a Kleenex.

The keys slipped off my lap and fell - silently - into the Kleenex box. I got out and locked the car, did not realize I did not have my keys until later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tethys
After I opened the driver's door, started to get out and heard the engine running, I knew what I forgot to do.
Article points out it is more a problem with certain makes (Toyota, etc.) that have quiet-running engines. It had to be really, really quiet for you to hear my Honda running.

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Old 05-17-2018, 05:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: Keyless Ignition killing People

The other half of that is that many of the people in the article were at least middle aged or seniors, IIRC, which coupled with an engine that emits ~50 dB at idle, they did not notice it.

If you can't feel any engine vibration at idle, glancing at the tachometer is a sure way to determine if the engine is still running after you get to your destination but before you exit the vehicle.

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Old 05-18-2018, 03:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: Keyless Ignition killing People

^ ^ ^ good point, but some auto trans cars don't have a tach.

I always thought tachs were standard equipment but a I think a couple of my minivans didn't have tachs. It was a wtf moment for me

They were Chryslers, so you could definitely hear them running.

The most "wtf, I thought it was standard equipment" was my '96 Pontiac Sunfire. I found out that it did not have a low fuel warning light. And according to the owner's manual, it was "normal" for the fuel gauge to be 1/4 tank off the actual level. I found this out after I ran out of gas, on a bridge, leaving work at 5 pm the day before Thanksgiving to pick up my son at daycare. Car was new to me and I was on my first tank of gas in that car.

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Old 05-18-2018, 06:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Keyless Ignition killing People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tethys View Post
The other half of that is that many of the people in the article were at least middle aged or seniors, IIRC, which coupled with an engine that emits ~50 dB at idle, they did not notice it..
Age doesn't matter. Some vehicles are quieter than others but doesn't change the fact that anyone can be distracted and simply forget the engine's running. Habits die hard while new habits create new distractions like texting and calls while walking. We've all read news of crossing the street while on a cellphone against the red light when the idiot suddenly stops from a car almost running him/her over if it wasn't for a horn blast.

Driving any vehicle into a garage, closing the garage door with the engine running while entering the house and never considering whether the engine was shut off may describe creatures of habits except the old car has a regular ignition key that has to be turned off to remove it. Anyone can adjust to a new routine and simply forget they have to manually shut off the engine by pushing the START/STOP button. And there lies the danger, more so in an enclosed space. I can imagine the same thing can or already occurred in public parking lots, running out the car and never pushing the START/STOP button, leaving the engine running. Some of us are so disciplined and focused that we don't even try to look or listen for the engine sounds and assume we shut off the engine in our rush to get to the train station, shopping mall or store before it closes.....everyday distractions.

I drove a Dodge Journey with keyless ignition and had a situation when I had the key and somehow gave it to one of my nephews. Engine was already running, jumped in and drove about a mile or so to a rental store. As soon as I parked I realized I didn't have the key fob. I called to let my nephew know if I shut off the engine I wouldn't be able to startup. He and other family members came in my car (two vehicle outing) and we exchanged ignition keys. My guess is the Dodge doesn't have a range or timer to shut off the engine. It can be a hazard if a range setting disables the engine when the key fob isn't in the vicinity. There was a rush that day to return rental items and the Journey's SUV holds more than my car can.

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Old 05-19-2018, 05:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: Keyless Ignition killing People

Had a neighbor had the same thing happen with a Toyota. Iím sure the dashboard must hound you that itís not in vehicle so at least youíd know.

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Old 05-19-2018, 06:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: Keyless Ignition killing People

Every modern car I have owned (including the Saturn) gives you a warning (chime, bell, etc) if you leave the key in the ignition and open the door (whether the engine is running or not) Why wouldn't the manufacturers have a notification if you open the door that the motor is running?

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Old 05-19-2018, 07:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: Keyless Ignition killing People

Quote:
Originally Posted by onefunkar View Post
Had a neighbor had the same thing happen with a Toyota. Iím sure the dashboard must hound you that itís not in vehicle so at least youíd know.
No warning, bells, whistles, dinging, alert icons, zilch. Since this was my first exposure to keyless starting with a push button to START and required push to STOP the engine, I was aware of this feature but was caught up in a timeline when I took the Journey for a quick drive to a store without the keyfob. My guess is my exposure to not having the keyfob in personal possession when I was driving away is probably repeated many times. Worse case scenarios like closed garages with the engine running resulting in carbon monoxide poisonings is a hard way to learn not to rely on electronics like many are doing with autonomous driving cars. The news article mentions an elderly man but further into the article mentions a woman's daughter dying from a similar incident, prompting my reply that age has no bearing on how easily anyone can forget to shut off their engine, inside a private garage or anywhere with keyless ignition systems. I drove one without possessing the keyfob. Luckily, my car and family were on an outing in two vehicles so not remembering to take the keyfob didn't cause harm. Thinking back on my short exposure to the new keyless ignition systems and how easy it is to forget to shut off the engine, the news had me thinking about stories not told yet of drivers walking away from their vehicles while its still running. The car manufacturers most likely warn owners of this but ask yourself who reads their owner's manual? After this news report, I'm probably going to peer into some cars when I visit a favorite park with a large parking lot. I've noticed when I walk by some vehicles, they're idling but a quick look shows a driver probably texting and taking a break. Other vehicles don't show drivers so I'm beginning to wonder if these are the ones with keyless ignition and people inadvertently left their engine idling after they leave. Near a major highway, it's a little noisy so a quiet engine won't make noise for anyone unaware of manually shutting off their engine - requiring pushing the START/STOP button since they can simply leave the car, with or without using their keyfob to lock the car.

Since the news makes little mention of car manufacturers incorporating a timer or warning indicator once a door is opened with an idling engine, this isn't the fault of manufacturers. When enough deaths are caused by repeated closed garages with idling engines from keyless ignition systems, with lawsuits attempting to blame manufacturers for driver ignorance, manufacturers may look into modifying software for a safety recall. This now becomes more nanny monitoring that many do not want but in the end who's at fault? My fault for not taking the keyfob was on me and hasn't occurred again where a simple distraction turned my attention elsewhere when I drove without the keyfob.

At the least, when the driver's door is opened and engine's idling on these keyless systems, maybe an annoying new noise attention getter will remind drivers to manually shut off their engines after parking and opening their door. Simple and effective. A flashing indicator too for the hard of hearing, whether flashing headlights and driving lights and/or flashing indicator in the instrument panel. More electronics, more sophistication. What should be a nice feature like keyless ignition may backfire on some with deadly results as reported.

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