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Old 03-02-2019, 02:29 PM   #21
OldNuc
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
Well, increasing the glycol percentage raises the coolant boiling point and allows for a lower freezing point, which is proportional to the liquid's specific gravity.

Boiling coolant is obviously not good.

Are you able to explain how water transfers energy better than glycol does?

The specific gravity and boiling point, I understand.

This part of your statement, I don't understand. I usually run 50%/50% mixes, because we don't usually get extreme temperatures on a regular basis.

I have cracked cylinder heads, on past engines on other cars, and I have seen plenty of cracked heads from tearing down core engines.
The specific heat capacity of water is equal to 1 and just about everything else is lower. The chart below will show that and the notes explain how to compensate for density changes with temperature. Increasing glycol concentration is only an issue when dealing with a marginal cooling system and/or a head/block with low or no flow areas. Several American V-8 engines suffer from both.

The Saturn cooling system is more than adequate for either engine and the decrease in specific heat capacity between 50% and 60% or 65% glycol concentration is not worth the effort to calculate. The chart is based on these fluids at atmospheric pressure.
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Old 03-03-2019, 12:05 PM   #22
Signmaster
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1995 SL1
Default Re: Oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNW View Post
Thank you all again

Head is at a shop in W. Mobile. Lots of big truck parts and car engines lying around It was hard to find people who actually do useful stuff.

He will pressure test then we will figure out step "B".

Added notes.
1. I never let the temp gauge go past "halfway". Else I turn on the A/C to start the cooling fan.
2. I ran synthetic oil for about 95% of its life. Which might have helped with the piston issue.
3. I can feel no ridge at top of cylinders. A good sign I think.
4. the timing tensioner was out only about 1/4 inch. A good sign maybe.

Looks like I can bring this this thing back from the edge of doom
Sounds like there is a good chance that it can be saved. As for going beyond the head, that's all just owners decisions. It can get easy to invest a lot in a car you won't keep long, or maybe just as easy to not do the work and then later wish you had.

I like our Saturn and it's served my family well for the commuter duty and some trips we purchased it for. But I really doubt I'll ever rebuild the lower end, unless I thought I could sell the freshly rebuilt engine and recoup the money... which I don't see as very likely.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
Well, increasing the glycol percentage raises the coolant boiling point and allows for a lower freezing point, which is proportional to the liquid's specific gravity.

Boiling coolant is obviously not good.

Are you able to explain how water transfers energy better than glycol does?

The specific gravity and boiling point, I understand.

This part of your statement, I don't understand. I usually run 50%/50% mixes, because we don't usually get extreme temperatures on a regular basis.

I have cracked cylinder heads, on past engines on other cars, and I have seen plenty of cracked heads from tearing down core engines.
Raising the boiling point and cooling the engine are two different things. But using glycol to raise the boiling point is also at the same time reducing the cooling ability of the system. The specific heat capacity of glycol (both EG and PG) is only about 60% the heat capacity of water.

The pressure within the system actually raises the boiling point much more than the glycol does. The only reason the glycol really exists is the anti freeze properties it introduces into the water. Since the water expands more with heat than the glycol does, another case where the water is helping the system more than the glycol.

Pressure also impacts the boundary layer characteristics and aids heat transfer.


It's no surprise that at the pointy end of racing tech teams run nothing but waters and compounds that reduce surface tension (water wetter types) at high pressures. Formula 1 actually introduced technical regulations that limited coolant tank pressures, since teams were essentially creating mini bombs that would also blow out oil and intercooler setups if they blew up.

Current regs mandate them to max pressures not much above 50 PSI (3.75 bar) which brings the boiling point of the fluid to close to 300 degrees. They manage to cool a Formula 1 car with less liquid than our S Series cars have.

...
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Old 03-03-2019, 02:15 PM   #23
Saturn Night
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1995 SC2
Default Re: Oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil

Ok, to make sure I am understanding what you and Nuc have posted in response, am I accurate in understanding that the boiling point being raised actually reduces the amount of heat energy, by volume of coolant flowing through the engine, that is absorbed and whisked away from the metal surfaces(block, cylinders, and head), which would actually keep more heat retained by the cylinder head?

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Old 03-03-2019, 03:54 PM   #24
OldNuc
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil

If you look at this as a unit of volume flowing at a constant rate and you then increase or decrease the glycol concentration while maintaining the volume and flow constant yes a higher concentration will remove fewer BTU of heat for those conditions. IF YOU are at the maximum heat removal capability of the cooling system and then add glycol the operating temperature will increase until the increased differential temperature between the metal and coolant is sufficient to carry away this heat. In any properly designed cooling system this is never going to be an issue. You can run into it easily with the small block GM and ford V-8s though if you increase the Hp/in markedly. The V-8 engine suffers from poor head flow characteristics and tends to have localized hot spots that can result in failures. There are other older designs that also suffer from poor cooling system design.

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Old 03-03-2019, 04:42 PM   #25
Signmaster
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1995 SL1
Default Re: Oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
Ok, to make sure I am understanding what you and Nuc have posted in response, am I accurate in understanding that the boiling point being raised actually reduces the amount of heat energy, by volume of coolant flowing through the engine, that is absorbed and whisked away from the metal surfaces(block, cylinders, and head), which would actually keep more heat retained by the cylinder head?
You are posing a multi pronged question, so the answer isn't all that simple.

Water has the ability to transfer more heat than glycol at any given flow rate. Thus if you add more glycol you lower the ability to transfer heat as quickly. So if you raise the boiling point by adding more glycol, you have created a situation where you will move heat less efficiently, but the boiling point is higher.

If not for pressure in the system, water would boil too soon for the average temp of most cars. But it doesn't due to the expansion that creates pressure in the system. Adding EG at 60% raises the boiling point about 20 degrees. But straight water with only about 7 lbs of pressure (above atmospheric) has about the same boiling point. That pressure would also further raise the boiling point of the a glycol and water solution.

If you look at any chart on an antifreeze container, it will have a little note about the max temp taking into consideration the system pressure.

More glycol would help keep you from boiling over if you lost system pressure, but it reaches higher temps quicker due to less cooling ability. Less glycol would boil over sooner, but since it cools better it will heat more slowly.

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Old 03-04-2019, 02:02 AM   #26
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Default Re: Oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Signmaster View Post
You are posing a multi pronged question, so the answer isn't all that simple.

Water has the ability to transfer more heat than glycol at any given flow rate. Thus if you add more glycol you lower the ability to transfer heat as quickly. So if you raise the boiling point by adding more glycol, you have created a situation where you will move heat less efficiently, but the boiling point is higher.

If not for pressure in the system, water would boil too soon for the average temp of most cars. But it doesn't due to the expansion that creates pressure in the system. Adding EG at 60% raises the boiling point about 20 degrees. But straight water with only about 7 lbs of pressure (above atmospheric) has about the same boiling point. That pressure would also further raise the boiling point of the a glycol and water solution.

If you look at any chart on an antifreeze container, it will have a little note about the max temp taking into consideration the system pressure.

More glycol would help keep you from boiling over if you lost system pressure, but it reaches higher temps quicker due to less cooling ability. Less glycol would boil over sooner, but since it cools better it will heat more slowly.
Ok, that makes sense. It is trade off, when adding or decreasing the amount of glycol in the coolant. I can comprehend that much of it.

...
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