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Old 08-16-2001, 01:53 PM   #1
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Default 1.8L and 2.0L for new S-series?

For anyone whose interested in talking about something other than banner ads that offend there sense of prudishness, there's some VERY interesting information over at Patrick's site concerning the 03 SC.

Most interesting is the post that claims to be from a Saturn employee who says the 2.2 will NOT be used in the 03 SC, and that a 1.8 and 2.0L twin cams will be used...didn't someone here say that the 2.0L Corp. Four-banger was a TURBO???

Here's the link if you actually want to get back to discussing CARS...

http://www.xtremesaturn.com/cgi-bin/Yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Performance%20Board&action=display& num=997414119&start=15

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Old 08-16-2001, 02:22 PM   #2
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No es bueno. Por qué no ofrezca los 2.2? 135 hp no está mucho para un coche pequeño actualmente. Turbos son demasiado complicado, y causa problemas.

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Old 08-16-2001, 02:45 PM   #3
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Here's what I hope to see, if 1.8 and 2.0 will be the case. The 1.8l engine should have between 120-130 hp. I believe the Corrola has a 130hp 1.8l engine. The 2.0 should have 140-150. Comparable to the Elantra, Sentra SE, others like that. Important to beat out the Civic and Focus. A turbo model should put out 180-200. Keep the current nomenclature, SL, SL1, SL2, and make the turbo model the S-turbo, or SLT, something like that.

We can say with certainty that a turbo model of these engines will exist. Saab will be using them in the future, as all their cars are turbo and will remain so. Whether or not Saturn will get them is going to be a very annoying mystery for quite some time I imagine.

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Old 08-16-2001, 02:52 PM   #4
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Sounds good Jeff, but let's not forget the one controversial rumored feature that will spoil all the fun....the center instrment cluster.

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Old 08-16-2001, 03:07 PM   #5
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Not to mention those annoying pop up ads and pornographic banners. :-D

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Old 08-16-2001, 03:10 PM   #6
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yeah you're right about that. center instrument panel would blow. 200hp or not.

There was a pretty funny tv commercial for the Echo regarding this "feature". A guy and a girl were getting ready to make out (ooh is this too steamy considering the brouhaha over the FHM ad?), but he kept getting distracted by the glowing center instrument panel, it looked like some weird eyeball watching them. I got a kick out of it.

Speaking of the Echo instrument panel, anyone ever notice that it comes standard with the "indiglo" style lighting that some people are clamoring for as aftermarket stuff for other cars? I find it funny that people want something for their cars that's standard on the Echo.


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Old 08-16-2001, 05:48 PM   #7
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The new motors sound great.

But I would like to see just one -- the 2.0L. It would make buying and selling easier. Hey, Toyota did it

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Old 08-17-2001, 12:13 AM   #8
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Quote:
DBLW1 (08-16-2001 02:52 p.m.):
Sounds good Jeff, but let's not forget the one controversial rumored feature that will spoil all the fun....the center instrment cluster.
There are "rumors" at Pat's site that this idea and the Honda motor have been shelved...if true I would rejoice.

OTOH...since this center mounted stuff started, I have tried on occasion looking forward and then down, forward, and to the side and down...if the center pod is farther forward than the current above the steering wheel pod, I think it actually might be easier to focus on...I know this sounds stupid, but try it once. I'm not saying I even remotely like the idea. It looks dumb as all hell, I think a HUD would be a better idea. The other dumb part is that this system supposedly has secondary gauges mounted on the A-pillar...now that's downright confusing.

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Old 08-17-2001, 10:33 AM   #9
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I don't get the pop-up banners. They are probably linked somehow to your computer's cookies and stuff like that. They know who you are and are targeting you because you have been to other sites like it in the past. Perhaps someone with access to your puter has been to bootiecall.com without telling you...

Whatever Saturn does with the new S-series, it better do it so that the car is quiet. The rev of a smooth motor sounds nice, the sounds of 4 squirrels getting brutally assaulted is less than pleasing to the ear. If Accords came with plastic bodies, I'd probably drive one just to get the Honda motor and the comparative peace that they bring.

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Old 08-17-2001, 10:57 AM   #10
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135hp wouldn't be bad. On the low side (as hokie so elequently discussed in Spanish) for small cars anymore, but it could be livable if the torque curve is wide and flat and the gearing is chosen well. That turbo engine may become a necessity- Car and Driver seemed to indicate (to me, anyway) that the Sentra SE (145hp) would be dropped from the Sentra lineup with the advent of the SE-R and the SE-R Spec V for the 2002 model year. Seems 3 performance variants are a bit too many for Nissan (the more the merrier, I say). However, this means that people looking for a bit more oomph in their small car will now be judging Saturn against a Nissan churning out 170hp- a very different matter if the SL2 is at the top of the Saturn small car heap with 135hp. They need more.

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Old 08-17-2001, 11:10 AM   #11
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I've been shopping for my next car all summer, actually it is a full fledged hobby now. I really liked the Sentra SE model ($15k) but the SE-R will be more expensive. If the next SC can be had for $2000 or more less than the more powerful and expensive models like the SE-R, Celica, Eclipse ect. That would be just fine for me, but I agree that the more levels of performance to suit more buyers is a good thing, just keep a model for the guy on a tighter budget. For 2002 you can't get a SC2 unless it has all the power features and since you have to pay MSRP, getting a SC2 with alloy wheels and ABS puts it closer to 18 grand with tax. That is way to much for just a 124 h.p. sport coupe. Even it is unique with the 3rd door and in my opnion outstanding exterior style.

I don't know what to make of the silence about the 03' SC either it is gonna be so good it will really surprise us or it is going to be a dud and they know it....

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Old 08-21-2001, 10:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
There are "rumors" at Pat's site that this idea and the Honda motor have been shelved...if true I would rejoice.
Me too.

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Old 08-21-2001, 10:57 AM   #13
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Would you prefer an Anerican made engine (Honda) or one built in the UK (Saturn 6)?

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Old 08-21-2001, 10:59 AM   #14
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One built in the UK, since trade doesn't seem to be such a one-way street there, as it is with Japan. And yeah, the Honda engine may be assembled in the U.S., but it's still a Honda.

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Old 08-21-2001, 11:12 AM   #15
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VTHOKIE97SL2 (08-21-2001 11:00 a.m.):
One built in the UK, since trade doesn't seem to be such a one-way street there, as it is with Japan. And yeah, the Honda engine may be assembled in the U.S., but it's still a Honda.
Why does it have to be one of these two motors? GM has plenty of nice motors it could use, without resorting to the honda motor.

I agree, I think I'd rather see it be the UK based 6. Despite all the noise DBLW1 made about the Honda motors being built in the US, I still suspect that they are in large part, built with Japanese componentry. Like Vthokie said, if they would actually learn to have fair trade, I wouldn't have such a problem with this.

Then you have the issue of the profits...I don't how it works for transnational companies nowadays, but it used to be that very little of the money made by foriegn firms in the US stayed in the US, nor did it ever return in the form of US goods and services purchased from abroad.

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Old 08-21-2001, 11:15 AM   #16
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Will the one made in the UK leak oil?

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Old 08-21-2001, 11:59 AM   #17
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it used to be that very little of the money made by foriegn firms in the US stayed in the US
True, the profits dont stay in the US nor does it help out the GDP, but it does benefit economically in the US. It's more of a win-win situation. US jobs are created not only at the plant, but thru anyone involved in the economic value chain, such as vendors, building contractors, delivery, etc... Money is reinvested and jobs are created in its largest market at stake.

Compare this to GM. Produce the motor out in England. Jobs are created in one its smaller markets in England and other parts Europe. Shipping is contracted in England to the US. Less money is spread thru the value chain of domesticly. GDP is added and profits goes straight to corp, but minimal jobs added domestically and reinvested. Money is spread in less hands domestically.

So you have the issue of spreading moderate amount of US money domestically it in more hands (the working class) or larger amount in fewer hands (corporate and executive and shareholders) domestically.

Which is worst? I'm not saying manufacturing in the UK is bad or vice versa, but it just nags me with this whole ideal of "buy American" and keep American jobs in America attitude against the Honda motor and Honda itself, when actuallity more American jobs are created from the Honda motors than the L300 motor. See the old thread on the Honda v6 subject. Check out how many "Buy American" replies there are, including yours, P.Grav. It's just amazing how now its OK to "buy UK".

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Old 08-21-2001, 11:12 PM   #18
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I don't want Honda engines in Saturns for reasons completely unrelated to where its built, what country's corporate entities get the profits, or any of that stuff...I don't want them under the hoods of Saturns because that means that it's not a Saturn engine, and Saturn's engineers won't have tuned it, etc.. If I wanted a Honda engine, I'd buy a Honda. The Saturn V6 might be an engine originated in Europe, but they've tuned it their way, and I LIKE it tuned their way! Would I prefer they were able to design their own clean-sheet-of-paper V6? Sure! But for now, the L V6 is the next best thing.

I don't want solid lifters with their required maintenance, no matter how "refined" the powerplant is supposed to be, nor do I want to pay Honda parts prices to get the thing fixed...no thanks!

Oh, and please, let's not get into a battle concerning the "superiority" or lack thereof, of Honda's engineering...I'm not criticizing Honda or their products, I just don't want Honda powered Saturns, ok?

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Old 08-22-2001, 03:49 AM   #19
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True, the profits dont stay in the US nor does it help out the GDP, but it does benefit economically in the US. It's more of a win-win situation. US jobs are created not only at the plant, but thru anyone involved in the economic value chain, such as vendors, building contractors, delivery, etc... Money is reinvested and jobs are created in its largest market at stake.
Well, Dee, I can't argue with that. I'm not trying to defend the way(absurd way) that they do business. As for the L project itself, Saturn sure got screwed by GM. I'm by no means putting the car down itself, nor the workers who build them...however, Saturn went from having a car company that was built around certain principles(I don't need to rehash what Saturn USED to mean) and a car that was 96% US built, and 100% US engineered...to now having to use an OLD Gm plant, "old school" contract language, and likely inheriting the sins of prior GM leadership...and the L car is what, 89% domestic content, and probably(realistically)50% US engineered? C'mon. That just plain stinks. The accord may have a higher domestic content, at least based on the way they currently classify content, but engineering wise, they are in the same or worse boat as the L.

Quote:

Which is worst? I'm not saying manufacturing in the UK is bad or vice versa,
If the trend keeps up, manufacturing in the US will be no different from mfg in the UK...I don't like the sound of that.

but it just nags me with this whole ideal of "buy American" and keep American jobs in America attitude

I see nothing wrong with the concept of keeping jobs in the US. Long Term, I think its everyone's best interest that the US maintain a stong industrial base...we all can't work service jobs that produce no real product. I can see how it is annoying if you believe it to be nothing more than a scam.


many "Buy American" replies there are, including yours, P.Grav. It's just amazing how now its OK to "buy UK".[/quote]

Despite your blatant mischaracterizations of what I was trying to say, I stand behind my opinions on the matter. Ive owned foreign cars... I even had a Japanese student as a roomate for awhile. I'm not some redneck who just fell off the buy american wagon. I do worry about what kind of country will exist for my kids...Ask Japan how come they still don't know what FAIR trade is. They are big believers in FREE Trade when the market is open to THEM. I don't see the British being so bullish. I'm not making a racist or culturally prejuced statement... I just don't buy the whole World Economy BS. Its a blanket statement that is supposed to justify the gross inequities in our trade systems. Even from just a resources standpoint, it makes more sense to attempt to source engineering, components and parts locally, no matter what country youre in, or who you work for.

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Old 08-22-2001, 08:43 AM   #20
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I even had a Japanese student as a roomate for awhile.
Please don't ever use this as a reason of why you are not racist again. I don't know you and I don't know whether you're racist or not and I'm not judging YOU, but this is an ignorant statement. This is like saying "I'm not racist, I watch Oprah everyday". Also if history has taught us anything as a country it is that we have to pay attention to the rest of the world (Does anyone need a refresher on why Germany was able to build up as much as they did before WWII?). The US economy depends on the rest of the world's economy.

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