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Old 02-01-2019, 12:01 PM   #1
Jonasan308
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Default Brake lines

Yesterday, after coming off the highway and stopping at a store, while putting the car in park, the brake pedal suddenly went flat. I knew pretty much right away that my brakes went out. Took a look underneath, and one of the brake lines in the rear was gushing fluid.

Ive not done the lines before, what should i have on hand before trying to repair the lines? So far, i see i need the lines, the Master cylinder line fittings, and a flare tool. Anything else ill need besides fluid?

All the lines are very rusty so i plan to replace them all to prevent this from occuring again.

...
1999 SL1-129k at purchase(may 2016)-139k when wrecked(September 2016)
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Old 02-01-2019, 01:02 PM   #2
Waiex191
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Default Re: Brake lines

You need flare wrenches:
https://m.harborfreight.com/5-pc-met...set-68866.html

A 25' roll of nicopp tubing is not enough for an S series. 30 might do it. I would also replace all the rubber lines. Take pictures of the routing before you remove them.

If your flare nuts don't survive you may need to go to the auto parts store. I have never found a good source of the metric flare nuts we need. Buy a short steel line and harvest the nuts.

If you can't crack the bleeders you may be in for a set of wheel calipers.

Have you found my two Saturn threads where I did the brake lines?

...
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'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
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Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
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Old 02-01-2019, 01:44 PM   #3
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Default Re: Brake lines

This jogged me into asking -- how many flexible brake hoses are there on the S-series? And are there decent/premium hoses for replacements still? I'm hoping it's not down to Dorman!!!!

Although living in the Pacific NW, my solid brake lines look fine/no rust, I do understand that the flexible hoses can rot internally and this can eventually result in a collapsed hose acting like a check valve -- locking the piston/cylinder in actuated mode and causing brake overheating.

I've heard scuttlebutt that the replacement interval for flexible lines is 15 to 20 years, and mine is now a spry 22 with Anti-lock foot massaging.....

Also, any recommendations on brands of low moisture activity brake fluid that is DOT 3 compatible??

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Old 02-01-2019, 01:45 PM   #4
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Default Re: Brake lines

Aren't they double flared, not single ones?

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Old 02-01-2019, 01:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Brake lines

There are 4 rubber lines. The two front are unique and I think the back two are identical. They are metric ISO bubble flares, not the good old double flares of my youth.

It's all made in China. I bought 4 Raybestos lines, one was bad and I replaced it with BrakeBest from the local store. The '98 got BrakeBest on the fronts.

I had lines "check valve" on my '83 Omni. You are smart to replace them sometime.

...
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Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

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Old 02-01-2019, 02:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Brake lines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
There are 4 rubber lines. The two front are unique and I think the back two are identical. They are metric ISO bubble flares, not the good old double flares of my youth.

It's all made in China. I bought 4 Raybestos lines, one was bad and I replaced it with BrakeBest from the local store. The '98 got BrakeBest on the fronts.

I had lines "check valve" on my '83 Omni. You are smart to replace them sometime.
Ugh. I don't mind paying top dollar for replacement parts, especially safety-related items. I don't want to go through a replacement cycle and then end up with some craptastic Chinesium rubber compound that fails 7 months later. Any other premium lines that can be retrofitted?

https://www.summitracing.com ???

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Old 02-01-2019, 02:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: Brake lines

Ive bled the brakes before so i dont think i need to worry about the bleeders getting siezed. we'll see though.

As for the fittings, what size and type do i need? My 2nd gen doesnt have ABS.

...
1999 SL1-129k at purchase(may 2016)-139k when wrecked(September 2016)
1999 SC1-156K at purchase(oct 2016)-215k(Oct 2019)
1996 SL2-116k- (oct 2019)
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: Brake lines

RockAuto has brake lines, bleed screws, etc,
look under car make / model / year for some parts,
however, some tend to hide.

Brake lines are under “Hydraulic Lines”

https://www.rockauto.com/en/tools/ho...c+line,1001908

...
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:26 PM   #9
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Default Re: Brake lines

Flaring tool

https://www.rockauto.com/en/tools/ho...aring+tool,484

...
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:40 PM   #10
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Default Re: Brake lines

If you're running your original master cylinder, you may want to at minimum replace the seals inside of it (or replace the entire thing). MC's that are older, tend to fail when being pedal bled, and it would suck to have brand new lines/hardware... only to find the MC is now needed. Also, the rear wheel cylinders are so cheap, it may be worth it to replace those while you're running new lines to them. Edit: Are you certain it's not just one of the rear cylinders that is causing the brake failure? It may be worth checking the two rear drum assemblies' cylinders before running all new lines.

...
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Old 02-01-2019, 03:48 PM   #11
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Default Re: Brake lines

I had the actual brake line rust out, that runs across the back rear support, that sprung a leak. Every time I went to pump the pedal, I could see fluid pulsate out.

Double Flare ends. And you'll need to bleed the system too.

...
Bryan

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99 SL

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Old 02-01-2019, 04:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Brake lines

Reuse your flare nuts if you can. I bought this tool. You need a bubble flare, not a double flare. There is a difference.

https://www.amazon.com/OTC-4504-Stin...ble+flair+tool

My '99 brake rebuild starts at post 131:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...=230898&page=7

I never replace or rebuild calipers, wheel cylinders, or master cylinders unless they need it.

Edit: more line fab post 24:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...=234273&page=2

...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

Last edited by Waiex191; 02-01-2019 at 04:28 PM..

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Old 02-01-2019, 10:23 PM   #13
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Default Re: Brake lines

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattwithcats View Post
I bought my two 25' coils of nicopp from inline tube on eBay. They were less than $25 each shipped. You can get similar pricing on Amazon.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181967023489

Next time I'll buy a 50' roll.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/391757935536
Or
https://www.amazon.com/Nickel-Copper...nbL&ref=plSrch

If anybody has a source of metric bubble flare nuts please post it here.

...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

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Old 02-02-2019, 12:15 AM   #14
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Default Re: Brake lines

http://catalog.fmsiinc.com/viewitems...re-tube-nuts-2

...
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Old 02-02-2019, 12:38 AM   #15
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Default Re: Brake lines

Awesome! Thanks! I tried to give you reputation but looks like I already did for something else.

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'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

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Old 02-02-2019, 01:45 AM   #16
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Default Re: Brake lines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
Reuse your flare nuts if you can. I bought this tool. You need a bubble flare, not a double flare. There is a difference.
Technically true. However, my Silverado 2500 crossed the scale at over 14k lbs with half finished double flares instead of bubble flares with no brake line leaks. Not saying it was correct...but the Hydro-boost unit puts 5x the line pressure to the calipers and it didn't leak even with stopping all that extra weight so it's not quite wrong either.

You'll not only get more cars done with the double flare kit, parts stores generally have replacement dies in stock and the entire double flare kit is usually $15-$20 cheaper than the bubble flare kit.

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Old 02-02-2019, 02:09 AM   #17
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Default Re: Brake lines

Amazon sells the FMSI brake hardware,
just search “fmsi automotive hardware”
once you figure out what you need...

...
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205/60R15 "H" rated tires, 5mm spacers rear...
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Old 02-02-2019, 08:56 AM   #18
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1999 SL
Default Re: Brake lines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiex191 View Post
Reuse your flare nuts if you can. I bought this tool. You need a bubble flare, not a double flare. There is a difference.

https://www.amazon.com/OTC-4504-Stin...ble+flair+tool

My '99 brake rebuild starts at post 131:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...=230898&page=7

I never replace or rebuild calipers, wheel cylinders, or master cylinders unless they need it.

Edit: more line fab post 24:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...=234273&page=2
Ugh- you are correct... why did I type Double Flare. ??? I think it was because I was reading about it in another thread...

They are Bubble Flares... and Yes- there is a difference, in how the "lip" is created on the end of the brake line.

...
Bryan

94SL2 HCE, "Pearl"

99 SL

94SL2 260K Miles
1/15

97SW2 266K Miles
2/15

Always
94SC1 340,501 Miles
Org. Engine/Auto Trans
2/97-10/08
Gone 3/12

92SL1
05VUE
91SC

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Old 02-02-2019, 11:40 AM   #19
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Default Re: Brake lines

I did find more on the internet searching for metric ISO bubble tube nut. Somebody once posted the sizes we need, could that person step forward again? I am thinking it was 10x1.0 and 12x1.0 but I am not sure. I had poor luck at my FLAPS.

Quote:
Technically true. However, my Silverado 2500 crossed the scale at over 14k lbs with half finished double flares instead of bubble flares with no brake line leaks.
Excellent improvisation. Remember though, the purpose of the hobby is to collect tools.

mattwithcatts' link has a $20 ISO bubble flare kit for $20 vs the $35 I spent.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/tools/ho...aring+tool,484

Quote:
I don't want to go through a replacement cycle and then end up with some craptastic Chinesium rubber compound that fails 7 months later.
Amen. Unfortunately it seems all the old quality manufacturers have moved production overseas. If somebody knows differently, post it here!

...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, 5SP bought new
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!
'98 SC2, 5SP bought 2018

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Old 02-02-2019, 01:03 PM   #20
Jonasan308
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Default Re: Brake lines

Im in the salty parts of the nation, i don't have much confidence that the flare nuts can be harvested.

...
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1999 SC1-156K at purchase(oct 2016)-215k(Oct 2019)
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