Thanks SaturnFans

[Razzle Dazzle]

It's been 7 years, and a long 110,000 miles that I've put on my 95 SC2, it's been mostly good, with the occasional frustration, normal of a 22 year old car. A couple weeks ago I had a transmission cooler line rupture, and after losing most of the line pressure, the transmission went in to limp home mode. I panicked, and even though I'm a certified FCA technician and know better, I limped it the 5 miles home. After replacing the lines, and restoring fluid to proper fill level, the transmission returned to normal, and survived its ordeal.

After fixing the cooler lines, it blew a tire on the passenger side, and the brake calipers both went bad from transmission fluid infiltrating the caliper seals. Because of the age of the car, the miles, and the financial growth I've experienced over the past year, I decided it was time to say goodbye to my Saturn. Sure, maybe the car just put the worst behind itself, but I've missed a lot of work because of the car this year, so I figured it's time to get something that'll keep me a reliable employee. I got a 'new to me' 2012 Chevrolet Cruze with 96k miles, with the 1.4L Turbo engine, and a manual transmission.

Anyway, the Saturn awaits the brake calipers, and a serpentine belt, before it gets sold, to assist in recuperating the $1,000 I put down on a 2012 Chevrolet Cruze.

SaturnFans get first dibs on my SC2, though. Its body is in great shape, and I've done a permanent fix on the pop-up headlight motor driver gears, it just got its trans fluid 'flushed'(Hah), it'll have both front brake calipers replaced, and probably pads just out of principle, though it didn't need em.

This is my thanks to everyone here that helped me through the weird problem diagnostics, that I couldn't figure out way back before I got myself more educated on the subject of diagnostics!

[OldNuc]

Probably should let everyone know where it is at.

[Razzle Dazzle]

Originally Posted by OldNuc

Probably should let everyone know where it is at.

Sitting in the driveway, probably dejectedly!

WisCANsin.

[OldNuc]

Did not know you were back in cheese-land.

[magician22773]

Dang .. about 1 week late

I was looking for either a 95 SC (best of both worlds .. 1st gen body, 2nd gen interior), or a 3rd gen SL.

Ended up finding an '01 SL just last weekend, or I probably would have been taking a roadtrip.

Don't be surprised if the S Series bug doesn't bite you again though. I strayed away for almost 3 years, but I missed my little oil guzzler too much.

[Razzle Dazzle]

Originally Posted by magician22773

Dang .. about 1 week late

I was looking for either a 95 SC (best of both worlds .. 1st gen body, 2nd gen interior), or a 3rd gen SL.

Ended up finding an '01 SL just last weekend, or I probably would have been taking a roadtrip.

Don't be surprised if the S Series bug doesn't bite you again though. I strayed away for almost 3 years, but I missed my little oil guzzler too much.

If I end up unable to sell it for what I want, I'll probably keep it and just make it a project for something to do, or a spare car in case of emergency. Probably do the oil control ring mod.

To be fair, the car needs a lot of love right now, so if I sell it, it's going to be under 1,000.

[StarLady]

Razzle,
Glad to hear things are going well for you. But sad that you want to let go of your Satty.
Wether or not you decide to keep it, I hope that you still visit this forum once in a while. I'm sure your knowledge and experience will be much appreciated around here.

[magician22773]

Originally Posted by Razzle Dazzle

If I end up unable to sell it for what I want, I'll probably keep it and just make it a project for something to do, or a spare car in case of emergency. Probably do the oil control ring mod.

To be fair, the car needs a lot of love right now, so if I sell it, it's going to be under 1,000.

I know you said you needed the cash to help offset the new purchase ... but if you can, I would hang on to it.

I did the exact same thing with my last SL .. i bought a Vue because I thought I needed (wanted) more space and a more modern car, and I sold the SL for $800 to cover the sales tax.

And I literally regretted it for almost 3 years. Numerous times I, or someone in the family needed a spare car for a day or two. The SL had it share of issues, biggest being a failing head or head gasket .. but I could put a new spark plug in #3, and it would run like a champ for a couple weeks. Finally after an inattentive old man knocked the front end off the Vue, I fixed it with $100 worth of Pick n Pull body panels, and used the rest of the insurance money to by me another SL.

[fdryer]

Originally Posted by Razzle Dazzle

....... I got a 'new to me' 2012 Chevrolet Cruze with 96k miles, with the 1.4L Turbo engine, and a manual transmission......

Out of curiosity, how does a your Chevy 1.4L like to run, with or without winding up the blower? Mpg without blower? Mpg with? Does the engine like being blown or can it run all day without it?

[Saturn Night]

Originally Posted by Razzle Dazzle

It's been 7 years, and a long 110,000 miles that I've put on my 95 SC2, it's been mostly good, with the occasional frustration, normal of a 22 year old car. A couple weeks ago I had a transmission cooler line rupture, and after losing most of the line pressure, the transmission went in to limp home mode. I panicked, and even though I'm a certified FCA technician and know better, I limped it the 5 miles home. After replacing the lines, and restoring fluid to proper fill level, the transmission returned to normal, and survived its ordeal.

After fixing the cooler lines, it blew a tire on the passenger side, and the brake calipers both went bad from transmission fluid infiltrating the caliper seals. Because of the age of the car, the miles, and the financial growth I've experienced over the past year, I decided it was time to say goodbye to my Saturn. Sure, maybe the car just put the worst behind itself, but I've missed a lot of work because of the car this year, so I figured it's time to get something that'll keep me a reliable employee. I got a 'new to me' 2012 Chevrolet Cruze with 96k miles, with the 1.4L Turbo engine, and a manual transmission.

Anyway, the Saturn awaits the brake calipers, and a serpentine belt, before it gets sold, to assist in recuperating the $1,000 I put down on a 2012 Chevrolet Cruze.

SaturnFans get first dibs on my SC2, though. Its body is in great shape, and I've done a permanent fix on the pop-up headlight motor driver gears, it just got its trans fluid 'flushed'(Hah), it'll have both front brake calipers replaced, and probably pads just out of principle, though it didn't need em.

This is my thanks to everyone here that helped me through the weird problem diagnostics, that I couldn't figure out way back before I got myself more educated on the subject of diagnostics!

Sounds to me like you are making your decision, based on a very frustrated emotional reaction to the sudden issues that could happen to any vehicle owner, especially in the rust belt of northern states.

Considering all the hassles you have experienced, from sudden trans oil cooler line failure that dominoed into brake failure and a tire blowout, why not keep it as a 2nd car.

The Cruze is not a bad little car, and the 1.4L Turbo engine is actually earned a reputation for being fairly reliable. Mileages should be around 29 city/36 highway, at least that is about what a couple of my friends average.

I know why you will regret selling your Saturn S-Series, if you do sell it:

WHEN something finally breaks on that Cruze, pop the hood and try to work under there. I have yet to locate the thermostat and alternator, as viewed from the top of the engine, on one of those. Apparently, they have to be on the engine, but good luck finding them, let alone actually changing them.

Plus, you have gone from OBD-I to a very advanced OBD-II system. Be prepared to see the "Check Engine" light come on for just about every damn thing possible, as OBD-II has WAY more codes and sensor inputs. This makes for more precise engine management, BUT means there are more things on the car that can break.

I hate OBD-II, and I refuse to buy any car made after 1995, because of this fact. The fact that the code scanner are 30x more expensive than buying a box of paper clips could also be another reason......

As you see, in my signature, I have two vehicles.

One is a noisy, rust bucket N-body, with the rattletrap Iron Duke. It has holes in the body, and water leaks during the winter from underneath, which turns my floor pans into ice sheets. I will not junk that car, until it stops running. If my Saturn goes down, no worries, fire up The Duke, and go to work. If I am out of oil, until payday, fire up The Duke and drive to work. And if I get tired of my sluggish N-body FE1 suspension and want to have some fun, I park The Duke, grab a gallon of 10w-30/Dex-III mix, and out on the road in my Saturn. No matter what, I always have a running vehicle.

[Razzle Dazzle]

Alright, I went a long time without being able to get on here.

I'll respond to it all at once. Fdryer. If by the blower, you mean the Turbo, the thing has almost no lag (because it's tiny), but it's enough when you feel it spin up that you know you're getting boost, and you're definitely getting more power than the 1.9L Twin Cam. I'm getting about 40mpg, with it, and the Cruze runs pretty smoothly, and quiet. The Spark Plugs are iridium fine-tip though, good for 60k miles, but I ended up having to do em, and daaaaaang were they expensive. The wastegate is bigger than the turbo, it dumps the boost for anything but acceleration, but it is ALWAYS boosting during uphill or acceleration.

StarLady: I loved my SC2 wayyyy too much to say goodbye to the brand. I miss her already and she's been gone a week.

Saturn Night: I unfortunately, was in a financial spot where I couldn't afford to keep the car, and on top of that I was at a place with the car where I can't trust it anymore. I was actually afraid to drive it, some days before I got the Cruze.

That said, now that she's gone, I really, really miss my SC2. She was an awesome car.

[Saturn Night]

I understand the financial side of things, all too well. I had to part with my 1980 Chevrolet Malibu Coupe, for the same reasons and regret having sold it. It had less than 80,000 miles on it, and was slated for a Chevy 283 "transplant", to replace the Chevy 267 V-8(a small bore 305, essentially).

However, since I speak from experience, I tried to warm you that you would kiss your Saturn.

[Saturn Night]

At least you went with a Cruze, and not a Hyundai, like somebody else did. The Cruze, for one, is built in Lordstown, OH(about a 15-minute drive from my house), and secondly, the 2016 Cruze is ranked ahead of some imports for reliability.

There is ONE problem to watch for, and it just happened to my friend's husband:

The "Engine Hot/AC off" warning. When this happened, it will be due to the water pump failing and coolant leaking out of the engine. 2011 Cruzes were recalled for it, but that was the only year, and it seems to be an issue with the 1.4L Turbo engine, only.

His Cruze is a 2012, with the 1.4L Turbo engine, as well.

And honestly, every person I know that owns a Cruze, has said only good things about them. After all the failures of the Cobalt and N-body of the early/mid 2000s, it is about time the General gets the hint about producing reliable cars that last a long time, again.

It is just a shame, that they are branded as Chevrolet, and not Saturn.....

[Razzle Dazzle]

Originally Posted by Saturn Night

At least you went with a Cruze, and not a Hyundai, like somebody else did. The Cruze, for one, is built in Lordstown, OH(about a 15-minute drive from my house), and secondly, the 2016 Cruze is ranked ahead of some imports for reliability.

There is ONE problem to watch for, and it just happened to my friend's husband:

The "Engine Hot/AC off" warning. When this happened, it will be due to the water pump failing and coolant leaking out of the engine. 2011 Cruzes were recalled for it, but that was the only year, and it seems to be an issue with the 1.4L Turbo engine, only.

His Cruze is a 2012, with the 1.4L Turbo engine, as well.

And honestly, every person I know that owns a Cruze, has said only good things about them. After all the failures of the Cobalt and N-body of the early/mid 2000s, it is about time the General gets the hint about producing reliable cars that last a long time, again.

It is just a shame, that they are branded as Chevrolet, and not Saturn.....

The Water pump on the car actually has an extended warranty of 15 years/150,000 miles, because they've had so many problems. I think it's because they have a built in turbo-timer, but I have no physical evidence of that, just the sound of an electric motor operating if the turbo was running a lot of boost prior to shut down.

[fdryer]

Forgive my ignorance if I'm not up to date on technology but the last time I read about turbo timers was a description for some (stock) turbo charged vehicles having a programmed timer to prevent engine shutdown after some hot driving with more than normal turbo use. My understanding of problems related to turbocharging stock cars in a factory configuration was original setups allowed hot engine oil to cook in the turbo after engine shutdown. With repeated hot driving (who doesn't want to use their turbo?) and normal engine shutdown, very hot turbos cooked oil in their housings leading to the term coking where cooked oil built up in the small oil passageways resulting in oil starvation. All hot turbos need oil continually to lube and remove heat otherwise the bearings seize. With cooked oil building up (the equivalent of plaque in arteries commonly known as arteriosclerosis) a coating to restrict oil lubrication, turbos suffered seizure with blue (oil burning) smoke from tail pipes. Car manufacturers stopped adding turbos for this reason. Race car drivers know this and simply let the engine idle for a few minutes before shutting down. Most drivers buying a car with a stock turbo don't know this with owner's manuals pointing out a need to idle the engine for a few minutes before shutdown. Most drivers are too lazy to do this and ignore the warning so the majority of factory installed turbochargers cook to premature seizure. This occurred in the '80's. Smart engineering and software added a turbo timer to deliberately run the engine when parameters were met (higher coolant temps, possibly oil temps are measured, etc) to keep an engine running for a few minutes after ignition is turned off. By idling a few minutes after some hot driving, the oil continues to run thru the hot turbo (its not turning with volumes of exhaust to spin it up) as it cools down without cooking standing oil when a hot turbo is shutdown. A driver can walk away while the engine idles until the timer ends with the engine and turbo cooled before the engine shuts down. The cooling fan may be running too as this is separate from the turbo timer. Coolant sensors detect temperature changes so a hot engine may result in the cooling fan running after any engine shutdown to help bring coolant temps down. It's presumed a turbo engine is warmer than a non turbo engine so anyone with a lead foot leaves an engine warmer than normal where the cooling fan may run for a few minutes too.

If you don't hear or see the engine running after driving, the cooling fan running by itself is probably doing so from warmer coolant. This isn't a turbo timer for cooling fans.

[Razzle Dazzle]

Originally Posted by fdryer

Forgive my ignorance if I'm not up to date on technology but the last time I read about turbo timers was a description for some (stock) turbo charged vehicles having a programmed timer to prevent engine shutdown after some hot driving with more than normal turbo use. My understanding of problems related to turbocharging stock cars in a factory configuration was original setups allowed hot engine oil to cook in the turbo after engine shutdown. With repeated hot driving (who doesn't want to use their turbo?) and normal engine shutdown, very hot turbos cooked oil in their housings leading to the term coking where cooked oil built up in the small oil passageways resulting in oil starvation. All hot turbos need oil continually to lube and remove heat otherwise the bearings seize. With cooked oil building up (the equivalent of plaque in arteries commonly known as arteriosclerosis) a coating to restrict oil lubrication, turbos suffered seizure with blue (oil burning) smoke from tail pipes. Car manufacturers stopped adding turbos for this reason. Race car drivers know this and simply let the engine idle for a few minutes before shutting down. Most drivers buying a car with a stock turbo don't know this with owner's manuals pointing out a need to idle the engine for a few minutes before shutdown. Most drivers are too lazy to do this and ignore the warning so the majority of factory installed turbochargers cook to premature seizure. This occurred in the '80's. Smart engineering and software added a turbo timer to deliberately run the engine when parameters were met (higher coolant temps, possibly oil temps are measured, etc) to keep an engine running for a few minutes after ignition is turned off. By idling a few minutes after some hot driving, the oil continues to run thru the hot turbo (its not turning with volumes of exhaust to spin it up) as it cools down without cooking standing oil when a hot turbo is shutdown. A driver can walk away while the engine idles until the timer ends with the engine and turbo cooled before the engine shuts down. The cooling fan may be running too as this is separate from the turbo timer. Coolant sensors detect temperature changes so a hot engine may result in the cooling fan running after any engine shutdown to help bring coolant temps down. It's presumed a turbo engine is warmer than a non turbo engine so anyone with a lead foot leaves an engine warmer than normal where the cooling fan may run for a few minutes too.

If you don't hear or see the engine running after driving, the cooling fan running by itself is probably doing so from warmer coolant. This isn't a turbo timer for cooling fans.

Well, essentially that's why a lot of cars didn't have turbos in the 80's, 90's, and 00's, is because the oil feed lines coke up with burnt oil, when they're shut off at very high temps, because oil sits in the feed line. It turns to carbon, starves the turbo of oil, and things break.

I can't speak for sure of the 1.4T Ecotec, because I'm not privy to the service information, or know the specifics of the water pump. But since I am privy to FCA vehicles, I can tell you with 100% knowledge and certainty that the cooling issue on the 1.4 Turbo Dart, Renegade, and Fiat 500's, is that instead of a normal turbo timer, since the average consumer that would buy one of those cars bought it for efficiency, wouldn't understand to let it idle down. A turbo timer would also make a consumer go 'why won't my car shut off when I turn the key off' and bring it in to the dealership. Then the dealer would have to explain it's 'normal' and a lot of consumers would get angry anyway. So, what they did, was they put a pump on it that an electronic motor can operate, and it basically keeps the coolant flowing, so that heat transfers to the coolant instead of burning off oil, since you can't really ever clear the feed lines. That pump runs for about 5 minutes after shut down.

I'm fairly certain that GM does that, too, since if I shut the car down after a long drive, or a heavy boost load, I can hear an electric motor running after popping the hood.

Cruze and Sonic owners over on Cruzetalk have actually reported that the most common reason for replacing a turbo so far has been the wastegate actuator pin failing. The vehicle runs at a steamy 220*F under normal operation, which they think is contributing to the pin failing. The customer also has no control over the turbo on this car.

[OldNuc]

A turbo also has an oil reservoir on each bearing or common between the 2 turbine wheel bearings to hold startup oil. The turbo spins up on start before the oil shows up in many cases. For long turbo life 100% PAO synthetic is highly recommended. Exhaust turbo heat is a major issue with these and an electric powered cooling loop is a good idea.

[floridasl22002]

Back in the late 80's back in the UK, I had a Renault 5 GT Turbo hot hatch. It ran a 1.3 engine with a Garret T2 (if I remember correctly). It was when hot hatches were all the rage in Europe and VW with the Golf GTI, Peugeot with the 205 and 209 GTI and then came along Renault with this pint sized rocket. I had the Gen 1 version and they did have issues with the turbo. There was quite a bit of lag until it kicked in and it too ran hot. When I switched mine off the electric fan would run for quite a while to cool everything down. I had people rush after me more than once in parking garages, saying hey mate you've left your car running!It was a great little rocket.

[fdryer]

Originally Posted by Razzle Dazzle

.....I can't speak for sure of the 1.4T Ecotec, because I'm not privy to the service information, or know the specifics of the water pump. But since I am privy to FCA vehicles, I can tell you with 100% knowledge and certainty that the cooling issue on the 1.4 Turbo Dart, Renegade, and Fiat 500's, is that instead of a normal turbo timer, since the average consumer that would buy one of those cars bought it for efficiency, wouldn't understand to let it idle down. A turbo timer would also make a consumer go 'why won't my car shut off when I turn the key off' and bring it in to the dealership. Then the dealer would have to explain it's 'normal' and a lot of consumers would get angry anyway. So, what they did, was they put a pump on it that an electronic motor can operate, and it basically keeps the coolant flowing, so that heat transfers to the coolant instead of burning off oil, since you can't really ever clear the feed lines. That pump runs for about 5 minutes after shut down.

I'm fairly certain that GM does that, too, since if I shut the car down after a long drive, or a heavy boost load, I can hear an electric motor running after popping the hood.

Cruze and Sonic owners over on Cruzetalk have actually reported that the most common reason for replacing a turbo so far has been the wastegate actuator pin failing. The vehicle runs at a steamy 220*F under normal operation, which they think is contributing to the pin failing. The customer also has no control over the turbo on this car.

Are you certain of these facts? When the '80s stock turbocharged engines fell by the wayside, it was determined owners refused to allow a cool down period of hot engine, hot turbos (all without water cooling in turbos, only oil lube/cooling). Owners refusing to sit in their cars for a few minutes reaped the rewards of coked turbos showing up everywhere. Turbocharging was discontinued. Much later, some manufacturers resorted to adding cooling system plumbing to help with heat removal. My guess is this too fell by the wayside as owners still refused to sit and wait for hot engines/hot turbos to cool down. Then came turbo timers incorporated into EFI system engine computers to remove this 'chore' or 'task' from owner responsibility and keep car companies happy without premature turbo damage/warranty issues from nagging away at profits. Cooling system plumbing added to turbos is additional engineering that for all intents and purposes complicates an already sophisticated EFI system with additional turbocharging technology to ensure regulated boost pressures and fuel metering doesn't result in the amateurs first time boost ending up as another blown engine from lack of knowledge of super/turbo charging fundamentals.

I'm not certain but my guess is turbos don't have any cooling system added as additional features to aid in cooling down a hot turbo. Oil is the main medium to remove heat so turbo timers allows drivers to walk away as the engine idles after shutdown.

To add to this, my plain jane aftermarket remote start system (put in about 5-7 yrs ago) has a turbo timer feature to allow the engine with turbocharging to run after removing the ignition key. This would have to be enabled in the r/s system programming and describes a 180 second/3 minute engine run after removing the ignition key. Simple software programming. This wasn't apparent back in the '80s when EFI systems were just beginning to overtake old carburetor/distributor systems without electronics. It was presumed by manufacturers installing turbochargers back then that owners would heed factory recommendations to idle their engines for a few minutes. Not and the main reason turbos went away. The resurgence of turbo and super charging with better EFI systems with programming allows possibly longer life of recent engines. It would appear as turbo timers will reduce the tendency for premature turbo damage but time will tell..........as reports tell whether or not this feature works overall.

[Razzle Dazzle]

Originally Posted by fdryer

Are you certain of these facts? When the '80s stock turbocharged engines fell by the wayside, it was determined owners refused to allow a cool down period of hot engine, hot turbos (all without water cooling in turbos, only oil lube/cooling). Owners refusing to sit in their cars for a few minutes reaped the rewards of coked turbos showing up everywhere. Turbocharging was discontinued. Much later, some manufacturers resorted to adding cooling system plumbing to help with heat removal. My guess is this too fell by the wayside as owners still refused to sit and wait for hot engines/hot turbos to cool down. Then came turbo timers incorporated into EFI system engine computers to remove this 'chore' or 'task' from owner responsibility and keep car companies happy without premature turbo damage/warranty issues from nagging away at profits. Cooling system plumbing added to turbos is additional engineering that for all intents and purposes complicates an already sophisticated EFI system with additional turbocharging technology to ensure regulated boost pressures and fuel metering doesn't result in the amateurs first time boost ending up as another blown engine from lack of knowledge of super/turbo charging fundamentals.

I'm not certain but my guess is turbos don't have any cooling system added as additional features to aid in cooling down a hot turbo. Oil is the main medium to remove heat so turbo timers allows drivers to walk away as the engine idles after shutdown.

To add to this, my plain jane aftermarket remote start system (put in about 5-7 yrs ago) has a turbo timer feature to allow the engine with turbocharging to run after removing the ignition key. This would have to be enabled in the r/s system programming and describes a 180 second/3 minute engine run after removing the ignition key. Simple software programming. This wasn't apparent back in the '80s when EFI systems were just beginning to overtake old carburetor/distributor systems without electronics. It was presumed by manufacturers installing turbochargers back then that owners would heed factory recommendations to idle their engines for a few minutes. Not and the main reason turbos went away. The resurgence of turbo and super charging with better EFI systems with programming allows possibly longer life of recent engines. It would appear as turbo timers will reduce the tendency for premature turbo damage but time will tell..........as reports tell whether or not this feature works overall.

100% Certain, the 1.4L Multiair Turbo used in the Dart, Renegade, and Fiat 500 has an electric water pump added to cool the turbo. I've seen it in the car, I've seen the engine out of the car with it bolted on, and had its operation described to me as part of FCA training, in an Engine Management Systems class.