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Old 01-22-2016, 04:49 AM   #1
brokendown
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Default V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

No i'm not claiming I have or know of one - this is to DISCUSS them. Rather it just re-intrigued me and made me go 'hmm!' Even though i'm mostly here to fix my stuff on minimum cost I still dream of fast saturns and think it would be fun... so this is just a fun talk.


So since the factory never made one, what would be involved if we tried to make one to really mess with the heads of the tricked out ricers?

I did some searches for fun just to see what the smallest V6's ever made were - in 1992 the Mazda MX3 apparently had a 1.8L available with about 130hp and the Mitsubishi 6A10 is only 1.6L and is almost adorably cute and tiny... but i'm not sure if there's alot of point having even less displacement and i'd think modded potential would not be excessive.

If you go full tube frame you could stick big american V8's in there - but that's almost cheating because anything goes in anything with that route... thats not an engine swap thats a full chassis swap.

So how bout we stick to things that could actually fit into the vehicle, have power potential "well in excess of 300hp" (since a 20psi DOHC will do that any day of the week) and not be too unfeasible to swap in?


I'll freely admit not knowing much about the Ecotecs - other than hearing about modified versions putting down absolutely stupid power, I would assume the biggest issues would be transmission durability. Has anyone ever stuffed an Ecotec into an SL/SC especially in some higher state of tune? Any idea what transmissions are feasible? I'd think that be the bigger limitation...


And although having Saturn brand V6 power would be neat, i'm thinking the Volkswagen VR6 engines would actually be one of the best options to get a true six or alot of power. For those who don't know, they are an extremely narrow vee angle only 10-15 degrees, so narrow they have a single cylinder head and the pistons look more like a staggered configuration than a true vee.



It was specifically designed to fit the VW Jetta and Golf which are also economy/compact cars. The engine was available in 2.8L 12 valve, 2.8L 24 valve, and 3.2L 24 valve versions - there's also a 3.6L version normally found in larger cars which apparently can be bolted in place with some minor modifications that's about the same external dimensions.

Although i'm no expert in VW engines, i'm told stock internals on even the 2.8L version will last right up to 500-600hp under turbo boost! Indeed the bigger problem is not trying to maximize power or stuff turbos on top of a 3.6L swap but to make the transmissions last - the strongest transmissions VW makes start getting iffy over 450-500hp.

On the other side of crazy there were also AWD systems fitted to some Jettas as well which the engine and transmission can work with... although it would be nontrivial work to put that in it's one of the few AWD systems designed to start with a transverse engine to ease packaging. Imagine the nuts of an AWD Saturn with 500hp plus...


So thats my idea of excessive yet feasible, what other engines/uprated transaxles do you think would be interesting?

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Old 01-22-2016, 02:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

One member did attempt to pass on info, purportedly seeing a V6 in one s-series car while trolling his local junk yard for parts but never followed up; http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...light=s-series

Volkswagon's VR6 is interesting (didn't know anyone made an ultra narrow V6) but its close to being discontinued; http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-slo...lkswagen-vr-6/

While no expert on feasibility studies of shoe horning a Saturn V6 into an S-series car, a cursory glance at my L300 with V6 fwd probably won't fit into the S-series. My guess is the narrower engine compartment in the S-series. And stock L300's are only 180hp. Most likely detuned on purpose since the European Vectra(?) was around 250hp as well as the Cadillac's Catera, both using the same V6 engine. Stock L300's already have 10:1 compression but use 87 octane so different mechanical parts and ecm 'tuned" for premium gas may be how this engine can have 250hp but not in L300's ().

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Old 01-24-2016, 09:10 PM   #3
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
One member did attempt to pass on info, purportedly seeing a V6 in one s-series car while trolling his local junk yard for parts but never followed up;
He responded with the name of the junkyard, anyone else motivated can call too to try figure out what the gig was.

Quote:
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While no expert on feasibility studies of shoe horning a Saturn V6 into an S-series car, a cursory glance at my L300 with V6 fwd probably won't fit into the S-series. My guess is the narrower engine compartment in the S-series. And stock L300's are only 180hp. Most likely detuned on purpose since the
I'd have to wonder what the performance potential of that V6 is. Even tho i'm not as hugely interested in it. It says "Saturn" but it's really Opel so that's not trueblood to me. :P Wasn't made for our cars was made for other things first.

Reading around a little bit more just for fun on the Ecotec again, I see some pretty amazing power numbers being turned out for drag racing (if you consider 2-3 dozen passes "reliable") in excess of 750hp... the problem is no transmission seems to be able to sanely handle it, and i'm not sure what the Ecotec would make under sustained use. (road racing, daily driving) Fiero guys use Getrag 282's and F40's which seem to handle mild small blocks okay (very mild by modern standards) but I can't seem to find much info on FWD transmissions stronger than that in other makes as 300hp is pretty much a barrier in front drive vehicles everywhere.

I suppose you could go automatic, the 4L65E's can be built stout enough for over 400hp quite regularily but the GM V6's usually attached probably wouldn't fit nice. Tho just for fun insanity there's the LS4 V8 made for the Impala SS tweaked and trimmed to fit into a space normally only allowing a V6, maybe if I ever have my saturn engine out at some point I need to start measuring that up for a v8. ;) Funnily enough the Cadillac 4.9L V8's (before Northstar) were also made to fit largely V6 engine compartments and bolt up to V6 transmissions (and weighed about what a v6 does due to aluminum blocks) but they don't have much power potential. I've seen one in a pontiac trans sport though and chevy celebrities.


So i'm back to Vdub - there are VR6's laying down over 500hp that have done so for YEARS with the same O2M VW transaxle (which is the strongest one they apparently make, being used with both V6 turbodiesels and the 3.6L in the Passat if I understand correctly and seemingly well built, unlike their automatics) even in AWD grippy tires situations. For an even crazier idea VW's DSG transmissions sound almost as powerful and stout for VR6 engined cars though it's not clear if they are as good at the higher hp levels like 600hp plus. Tho imagine that for a moment, a 600hp DSG shifted AWD saturn... calculations show 1/4 mile potential in the 9's if the weight doesn't increase too far, certainly the low 10's.

If someone has another idea for a strong engine/trans packages (i've heard of a few insane honda/acuras but couldn't find out what trans was used) i'm all ears - tho I don't think the honda v6 could fit either.


That article is definately right - with 4cyls putting out as much as 350hp like in the new Ford Focus RS we no longer need as much displacement. The VR6's had the advantage of being as smooth as an inline six though (not the rough and tumble of the v6's) and were definately sophisticated and clever. It's too bad they dont turn out some nuts performance final version of it as a sendoff.


Fun fact for those curious how far the VR6 can go - there's a guy on VWvortex whose running 1100hp with a six speed O2M and AWD on his 3.6L Passat-derived VR6 stuffed into a Jetta.

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Old 01-26-2016, 02:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

Dunno what it would take to make it work, but the non-turbo 1.3 liter Wankel in the RX8 was around 230 hp at the crank.

Looks like Mazda is still developing the rotary, may be a new one soon
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/...ose-its-spark/

HP doesn't tell the whole story, though. It would be hella fun to drive up to the 9,000 rpm redline

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Old 01-26-2016, 02:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

has anybody here actually seriously tried to get a v-6 in the s-series? people say they won't fit, but how does anybody know if they didn't actually try? pontiac managed to shoehorn a v-6 in the the fiero when most had the 4 cylinder. remember those? i seen burst into flames once just minutes after the driver parked it in a parking lot.

anyway i bought the saturn for economical transportation. if i wanted a hotrod i would just buy a camaro....

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Old 01-26-2016, 03:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

http://sixthsphere.com/showthread.ph...o-(V6-RWD-Swap)

It's already been done.

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Old 01-26-2016, 04:04 PM   #7
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

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well that's a whole chassis swap, not just an engime swap with a stock engine like mentioned. and it's rear drive to boot. hell might as well drop a v8 in that baby...

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Old 01-26-2016, 04:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

It's not a chassis swap. It's still the same 95 SC2 that he originally turbocharged with the 4 cylinder LL0. He got into it with a saw and a welder though, like you'd have to with ANY swap of this magnitude. Why would he do all that work though and not make room for slicks so it could hook up?

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Old 01-26-2016, 04:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

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It's not a chassis swap. It's still the same 95 SC2 that he originally turbocharged with the 4 cylinder LL0. He got into it with a saw and a welder though, like you'd have to with ANY swap of this magnitude. Why would he do all that work though and not make room for slicks so it could hook up?
well it's rear wheel drive, so it's a major swap. not like just dropping a stock v-6 with the stock trans & other parts. look at those wide rear tires though, major work to get those in.

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Old 01-26-2016, 04:16 PM   #10
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

how about a rotary engine in one of these cars? those engines are compact & powerful. would'nt that cause some commotion on this forum if someone seen one of those...

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Old 01-26-2016, 04:17 PM   #11
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

I guess? But to indicate that it's somehow inferior to your goal would be confusing to me. What's wrong with having gone above and beyond and not settling for FWD? He likely couldn't have had a manual for example and making 2x axles is more work than making 1 driveshaft for example as you have to fit the splines for both trans and hub. Instead 1 driveshaft of custom length fits into a rear end with it's own hubs, etc.

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Old 01-26-2016, 04:23 PM   #12
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

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how about a rotary engine in one of these cars? those engines are compact & powerful. would'nt that cause some commotion on this forum if someone seen one of those...
There's a 6S thread on that too.

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Old 01-30-2016, 10:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

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how about a rotary engine in one of these cars? those engines are compact & powerful. would'nt that cause some commotion on this forum if someone seen one of those...
Well a rotary engine would fit right into an S series, since they both use oil

Besides that, rotary engines are hard on fuel, are not reliable, and have emissions issues. Pass...

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Old 03-10-2016, 11:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

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has anybody here actually seriously tried to get a v-6 in the s-series? people say they won't fit, but how does anybody know if they didn't actually try?
This picture been around for at least 10 years.


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Old 03-10-2016, 11:08 AM   #15
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

That one grainy picture yeah. I've seen that thing over and over for 10 years.. nothing else to back it up.

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Old 03-11-2016, 02:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

does anybody know where this pic came from? who's car that is? no more details than just the pic? never seen it before myself...

could it be that the person who started the other v-6 thread is right??

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Old 03-11-2016, 02:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

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could it be that the person who started the other v-6 thread is right??
Doubtful. Show more than a single pic and I'll be more inclined to believe it. Show a second angle of this same car even..

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Old 03-11-2016, 02:25 PM   #18
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Doubtful. Show more than a single pic and I'll be more inclined to believe it. Show a second angle of this same car even..
the pic sure looks authentic, but then again it's a pic. I see many pics of ufo's, bigfoot, & the loch ness monster, but then again their just pics & don't prove their all real.

just wondering where this pic came from.

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Old 03-11-2016, 03:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=12

This post. I offered the guy money to go and get proof. Nothing.

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Old 03-11-2016, 05:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: V6 and S-series engine swap discussion for real :)

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http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=12

This post. I offered the guy money to go and get proof. Nothing.
ya I remember that thread. has he been on since?

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