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Old 08-05-2016, 04:22 PM   #1
cityhawk
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Default subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

I'm hoping it's not a rod knock.... but also, when I've experienced rod knock in the past, you could hear it on start up and when revving the engine, and when placing a load on the engine.

This noise sounds kind of like rod knock, but occurs as follows:

1) can't hear it at all on start up or while revving the engine with the car standing still. Even when revving the engine by hand with my face near the engine. Sound not there.

2) occurs when driving with the transmission in gear and the clutch engaged.

3) No difference in sound with the engine under load or when coasting downhill.

4) No apparent difference in the frequency of the sound when shifting gears to a higher or lower gear.

Sound goes away when I step on the clutch or put the car in neutral and coast regardless of engine speed.

I'd have tried to record this sound while driving, but it's so subtle, I'm sure that it would get lost in all the other sounds my car makes. I kind of wish I could sit on the hood while someone else drives it to listen for the sound, but that seems like a very bad idea. Plus I don't have anyone who can drive it while I do that anyway. The sound kind of kicks in around 20mph.

I recently installed new top engine mount and lower transaxle mount. If one (or both) of my dogbones is a little worn, would it make a sound like this?

...
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Old 08-05-2016, 06:02 PM   #2
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Check end-play on the crank. That's kind of a long-shot, of course, but pretty easy to do.

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Old 08-05-2016, 06:10 PM   #3
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Crank end play that can be measured with a yard stick does not make any sounds.

Belt tensioner and does the knock frequency change with RPM? Try getting the car going down the road and ease off the throttle slowly until you actually start to very slowly lose speed. Does the sound remain constant or does it quit at that no-load point right before starting to lose speed?

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Old 08-05-2016, 06:42 PM   #4
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

If you disconnect only one plug at a time and drive it, it will quiet once you get to the offending rod, since it's wont be making power any more... That is if it is rod knock.

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Old 08-05-2016, 07:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Being a DIS ignition if you do not ground that disconnected wire something is going to get burned up doing this.

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Old 08-05-2016, 07:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Crank end play that can be measured with a yard stick does not make any sounds.

Belt tensioner and does the knock frequency change with RPM? Try getting the car going down the road and ease off the throttle slowly until you actually start to very slowly lose speed. Does the sound remain constant or does it quit at that no-load point right before starting to lose speed?
IIRC, it keeps on going on deceleration (and while coasting with the car in gear).

I didn't think of the tensioner, though I just replaced mine with an OEM tensioner a year and a half ago or so.

...
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Old 08-05-2016, 07:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

I don't know if this is any good... but the sound come in at around 5 seconds and goes through to the end. It's hard to hear in this video though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt4ZeJl50Ks

...
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Old 08-05-2016, 10:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Bad belt can cause noises. Passenger side axle. Loose wheel lug nut, right side.

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Old 08-05-2016, 10:39 PM   #9
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

(deleted a mistake, I misread previous posts!)

There are several rare problems that can sound similar to a rod-knock, a broken piston or piston-pin come to mind. Obviously, you want to do extensive checking of all else before even thinking about going there!

Pull off an injector connector to disable a single cylinder if you don't want to bother having to ground the unused ignition wire.

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Old 08-06-2016, 07:45 AM   #10
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

You may be hearing piston slap in a well used engine and that is an Oh, never mind. Broken rings and or piston pins will become obvious in a matter of hours to days as those are fatal failures. As a guess I would lean toward piston slap.

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Old 08-06-2016, 10:53 AM   #11
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Being a DIS ignition if you do not ground that disconnected wire something is going to get burned up doing this.
Good point!. Thank you.

...
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Bad belt can cause noises. Passenger side axle. Loose wheel lug nut, right side.
I'm kind of thinking along these lines. I have a long drive to my second job in the morning. I'll double check the lug nuts before I leave... I did just do my front brakes. Otherwise I was thinking axle as a possibility. Perhaps I can put the front up on jack stands and get the car up to speed and see if I can reproduce it.

The sound is most pronounced while coasting in gear or under constant throttle or light load conditions. Pretty much goes away under acceleration.

I'd be very surprised if it were an internal engine condition... 163k, well-maintained engine (I've had it since around 67k miles, faithful oil changes and never running it low, full synthetics for the last 30k or so miles with minimal oil use (some leakage around the valve cover). Just to come out of the blue with a rod or piston problem would be surprising.... and the sound pattern just seems wrong.... it seems to be related to the drive train somehow, though only present when the engine is running with the drive train.

...
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Old 08-08-2016, 12:28 AM   #13
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Broken springs in the clutch disk hub?

Remember this? "Sound goes away when I step on the clutch or put the car in neutral and coast regardless of engine speed." Did you ignore the BS and check crank end-play as suggested by me?

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Old 08-08-2016, 07:36 AM   #14
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Post Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Possible sticky caliper since you just did a brake replacement. Something to check into.

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Old 08-08-2016, 09:42 AM   #15
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by cityhawk View Post
I'm kind of thinking along these lines. I have a long drive to my second job in the morning. I'll double check the lug nuts before I leave... I did just do my front brakes. Otherwise I was thinking axle as a possibility. Perhaps I can put the front up on jack stands and get the car up to speed and see if I can reproduce it.

The sound is most pronounced while coasting in gear or under constant throttle or light load conditions. Pretty much goes away under acceleration.

I'd be very surprised if it were an internal engine condition... 163k, well-maintained engine (I've had it since around 67k miles, faithful oil changes and never running it low, full synthetics for the last 30k or so miles with minimal oil use (some leakage around the valve cover). Just to come out of the blue with a rod or piston problem would be surprising.... and the sound pattern just seems wrong.... it seems to be related to the drive train somehow, though only present when the engine is running with the drive train.
The caliper could be the issue and is easy to test. Induce the conditions that result in the noise and while holding throttle constant very gently press on the brake, if noise quits it is a sticky spot on a rotor. Declutching changes the thrust direction on the drive system, makes noise quit.

It is not excessive crank end play either.

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Old 08-09-2016, 11:10 AM   #16
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Alas, the brake trick didn't stop the sound. The lugs were tight also.

I lifted the front wheels off the ground and as best as I can tell, the sound seems to come from the transmission.

Two videos.... the first, mid throttle in neutral. The second,.mid throttle in 4th gear (around 30mph on the speedo).

https://youtu.be/awJO7B_dODU

https://youtu.be/NAz0IuvBVG4

Additional data: Trans fluid not full, but high in the OK zone on the dipstick, and it looks clean. Last filled around 40k miles ago with Amsoil Torque Drive when I replaced my transaxle.

...
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Old 08-09-2016, 11:58 AM   #17
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Do not fill above 1/2 way up on the crosshatch cold.

Get a mechanics stethoscope and start probing around and locate the loudest points.

There is nothing that is supposed to sound like that so finding the exact area is critical to guessing what it is. http://www.harborfreight.com/mechani...ope-69913.html

It might be a rather worn thrust bearing bouncing on the pressure plate fingers, how old is the clutch?

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Old 08-09-2016, 12:44 PM   #18
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Do not fill above 1/2 way up on the crosshatch cold.

Get a mechanics stethoscope and start probing around and locate the loudest points.

There is nothing that is supposed to sound like that so finding the exact area is critical to guessing what it is. http://www.harborfreight.com/mechani...ope-69913.html

It might be a rather worn thrust bearing bouncing on the pressure plate fingers, how old is the clutch?
I had considered the throw out bearing. My clutch is pretty worn. I usually get around 100k on a clutch with combined city stop and go plus highway miles. This clutch has only around 60k on it, but it's got a huge amount of stop and go. (60k miles over around 11 years of daily use, including an annual parade where I drive for over an hour and never get out if first gear.

...
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Gone but not forgotten:
2001 LW300 ("Elle")
1999 SW2 MT
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1928 Ford Model A Tudor Sedan

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Old 08-09-2016, 12:55 PM   #19
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

And I do have one of those stethoscopes. I'll try the next time I can get under the car. It may be hard to localize the sound when listening to something as loud as the transaxle. If I can't find it on my own soon, I'm thinking of asking Ernie to check it out. I don't think there's anyone on the forums here who have been around since the early 2000s, but there used to be a Tech forum (it's still here, just dormant). Ernie's a guy who was a frequent poster here under the username "sattech" who helped out a lot of people. He was also a senior tech at Saturn of Norwood, Massachusetts and the guy who serviced my cars most of the time back when there used to be a Saturn corporation. He is now a tech at another GM dealer somewhere in southeastern Massachusetts.... and I am in touch with him via Facebook. Thankfully, his dealership is not a SASP, so I can avoid the usual malarkey.

...
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1993 SW2 MT 182,000 hard Boston city miles ("Rozzie")
Gone but not forgotten:
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1999 SW2 MT
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1928 Ford Model A Tudor Sedan

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Old 08-09-2016, 08:21 PM   #20
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Default Re: subtle "rod knock" like sound, but the pattern is wrong

Sounds like you TOB rattling around, my 92 coupe does the same thing its annoying

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