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Old 11-20-2006, 02:15 AM   #1
dp97sc2
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Default will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Im hoping for a diesel hybrid. If they don't get 60 mpg soon I'm just not buying.

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Old 11-20-2006, 02:26 AM   #2
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Hybrid, LOL. I'm more for E85 vehicles....actually for vehicles that don't rely on any foreign oils....all natural products and next to no emissions....then I'd buy a car like that. I like E85 as it would help promote farms and the source is renewable. Recycle, reduce, reuse...yup.

BTW, GM will get better fuel economy...all cars will one day...we're just waiting for the technology.

I think they should focus on a non-petroleum substance that will do that....I just don't see it possible with petroleum as it burns rather quickly.

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Old 11-20-2006, 08:17 AM   #3
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

I believe the diesel engine may come back as soon as the mandated low sulphur diesel fuel is stockpiled and a price per gallon is set for the vehicle manufacturers to begin supplying diesel vehicles. If diesels are popular in Europe then the vehicle manufacturers are just waiting for the right business opportunity to re-invest in diesel engines in enough quantities to see a return on their capital expenditures. The public stiil won't embrace diesels because of the noise and exhaust smell compared to gasoline engines. Anyone remember the Oldsmobile diesel engine disaster. GM attempted to convert a gas engine to diesel to keep re-tooling expenses to a minimum and thought that would be the ticket for the public to buy into diesel engines. I think it had a very short life. The VW diesel from the past was taken from the European market and sold here with little success and discontinued for lack of popularity. This all occurred during the gas crisis of the 70's.

Diesel technology is tried and proven but not mass marketed here in the car sector unless gas prices stay above $3 per gallon for diesel prices to compete. Everyone knows diesels have better mpg's but there is a transition area nobody wants to acknowledge; cold winter starts require pre-heating a glow plug necessitating a longer starting time interval, ensuring fuel won't gel because diesel fuel is thicker than gasoline in the winter, and not enough pump stations for the public to buy diesel fuel wherever they want to. Diesel engine maintenance is different so there would require an adjustment in the public's perception probably creating a new learning curve that would result in damaged engines from improper maintenance or even the inadvertent pumping of gasoline into the tank. This might be minimized if a large population were to buy diesels so that shared experiences would minimize the mistakes made learning about diesel maintenance.

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Old 11-20-2006, 09:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

You might have to move to Europe.
The best you'll get from GM right now is the Vauxhall/Opel Corsa with 1.3L CTDi diesel. Rated at approx 40 city/60 highway/51 combined by the British gov't.
Our cars might get better fuel economy if we weren't so desparate to accelerate from 0-60 in under 6 seconds. If Saturn were to install the 1.8L VVT ecotec in the ION the fuel economy would be closer to 30 instead of 25-26.

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Old 11-20-2006, 09:40 AM   #5
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer
If diesels are popular in Europe then the vehicle manufacturers are just waiting for the right business opportunity to re-invest in diesel engines in enough quantities to see a return on their capital expenditures. The public stiil won't embrace diesels because of the noise and exhaust smell compared to gasoline engines. Anyone remember the Oldsmobile diesel engine disaster.
We had an Olds diesel. The engine is sitting in my backyard. Expect diesel cars from Mercedes, Jeep VW and Audi to show up soon. The Honda Accord in 2009 will have a diesel. The noise problem is pretty much been solved. Modern diesels are actually quieter than gas counterparts.

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Old 11-20-2006, 10:28 AM   #6
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dp97sc2
Im hoping for a diesel hybrid. If they don't get 60 mpg soon I'm just not buying.
60 mpg? If that's what you're looking for, there won't be anyone for you to buy from. Show me a car that gets 60 mpg. If we had the diesel smart, we could do it, but as much as I like them, I doubt that one will hit our shores.

The road to more accurate mileage
New rules for calculating estimates take effect next month and will be seen on 2008 models; however, don't look for precise numbers


It's not just GM, and frankly, all companies - Japanese, European and Domestic - sell cars that get poor MPG, it's just that there is this impression that carries on from the late 70's and early 80's that Japanese cars get better mileage, even though EPA rating wise, they're comparable with domestics.

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Old 11-20-2006, 10:33 AM   #7
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsky
If Saturn were to install the 1.8L VVT ecotec in the ION the fuel economy would be closer to 30 instead of 25-26.
Huh? Is that average? My Ion averages 32-34.....I've never seen it go down to 25 or 26. Wow. I guess that means they could put the 1.8 VVT (which is actually not the same Ecotec as here in the States) in mine and I'd hit 40 mpg? I've thought about putting the 2.0 crank and rods in mine and making it a 2.0 normally aspirated model...should put out about 130-135 horse and gain at least 2-3 mpg highway. I'd like to find me a SAAB 9-3 6 speed manual as well. It'll bolt up since the 2.0 Turbo Ecotec they use shares the same block and bellhousing bolt pattern as our 2.0SC/2.2/2.4VVT Ecotecs.

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Old 11-20-2006, 10:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaturnManiac
Hybrid, LOL. I'm more for E85 vehicles....actually for vehicles that don't rely on any foreign oils....all natural products and next to no emissions....then I'd buy a car like that. I like E85 as it would help promote farms and the source is renewable. Recycle, reduce, reuse...yup.
Ethanol is a less efficient fuel source than petroleum and the mandated 10% sold in many areas has done nothing to reduce pollution. If ethanol production were up to where it would need to be to make a dent in oil consumption, there would be arguably more environmental damage, not to mention depletion of the midwest's aquifers....

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Old 11-20-2006, 10:59 AM   #9
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturn_69
Show me a car that gets 60 mpg. If we had the diesel smart, we could do it, but as much as I like them, I doubt that one will hit our shores.

No diesel smarts in U.S.A? We have them here in Canada

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Old 11-20-2006, 11:18 AM   #10
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

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Originally Posted by Kevin94SL
No diesel smarts in U.S.A? We have them here in Canada
They haven't confirmed whether or not the diesel version is coming here, at least in the news letters I've been getting. I'd like them to, because then I'd only need to put gas in my car twice a month instead of every week.

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Old 11-20-2006, 12:25 PM   #11
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturn_69
Huh? Is that average? My Ion averages 32-34.....I've never seen it go down to 25 or 26. Wow. I guess that means they could put the 1.8 VVT (which is actually not the same Ecotec as here in the States) in mine and I'd hit 40 mpg? I've thought about putting the 2.0 crank and rods in mine and making it a 2.0 normally aspirated model...should put out about 130-135 horse and gain at least 2-3 mpg highway.
I'm really just guessing because the 1.8 VVT is closer in tech and size/power to the Civic or Corolla numbers. I'd hope for 30 city/40 highway. I get 25-26 because I drive short runs in traffic mostly. If I'm on the highway I get 35 mpg.

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Old 11-20-2006, 12:31 PM   #12
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsky
I'm really just guessing because the 1.8 VVT is closer in tech and size/power to the Civic or Corolla numbers. I'd hope for 30 city/40 highway. I get 25-26 because I drive short runs in traffic mostly. If I'm on the highway I get 35 mpg.
Whew...thought they're might be something wrong there. I guess the Astra will have a couple other engine options than what the Ion gets. Let's hope one is a high mpg version.

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Old 11-20-2006, 12:45 PM   #13
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturn_69
They haven't confirmed whether or not the diesel version is coming here, at least in the news letters I've been getting. I'd like them to, because then I'd only need to put gas in my car twice a month instead of every week.
Not going to argue with you there, but for what you are paying (at least here in Canada... they start at 16,700). Maintenance is a horrible expense - oil changes are worth $100 + as there is no drain plug and the old oil has to be pumped out of the pan with a special pump.

Agree on the gas milage though, it would be nice to have. I'll just settle for a used S-Series that turns me 40MPG

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Old 11-20-2006, 01:52 PM   #14
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturn_69
I guess the Astra will have a couple other engine options than what the Ion gets. Let's hope one is a high mpg version.
Astra customers will have a choice of eleven different engines from 90 to 240 PS. The Astra engine range is expanded with two new highly efficient 1.6 liter gasoline engines and two 1.7 CDTI common-rail turbo-diesel units that are already capable of meeting future emissions standards.

http://auto-report.net/WordPress/?p=265

lots more detail included European fuel milage ratings at link.

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Old 11-20-2006, 02:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Ford managed to squeeze more mileage and better emissions control out of it's Focus engine. Now it's bragging how it runs as clean as a hybrid. A Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle. If GM or Saturn had done that I would have traded, but no. They offer an even larger engine in the Cobalt and ION than the 2.2. E85 you can get on the behemoths. Ford takes the PR advantage and in mileage, even though real world #s might be less, gets the bragging rights and the perception that they're the leaders in the fuel economy and emissions battle.
My ION has always bested the EPA #s and comparing Saturn 1.9 DOHC w/ auto. and Eco 2.2 w/ auto. the mileage is not significantly less. That's one form of "progress", I suppose, especially when the ION weighs so much more.
It still doesn't excuse GM from not improving it from year to year. They led the world in down sizing and making efficient,strong, roomy cars. 25 years later and all this sophisticated engine management tech and computer control of fuel delivery there should be no reason the base 2.2 could not get at least the same as the Ford Focus.
They have the ability. Perhaps not building ever succeeding generation of vehicle wider longer and heavier would help.
BTW: the average vehicle blows a .40 on the emissions test tag of the ION. The ION emits .009 in CA emissions trim. Far better than the average car.
Does anyone know how that compares with Focus PZEV #s ?
A mad dash 1 day trip to Dan Diego at 75-85 MPH net me 33.8 mpg. Not shabby at all. So it could be argued both that GM is not making the effort and that they really have done the work. Can't say I am disappointed, but at least offer a more miserly car, GM. [no, the Aveo doesn't cut it]. That leaves the Pontiac/Toyo creation, the Vibe. And if I wanted a Toyota I would buy one, the Yaris.

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Old 11-20-2006, 02:33 PM   #16
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

I don't understand why everyone bashes GM for fuel economy. Ever looked at VW's numbers? Or Audi's? Except for the diesel's, VW cars don't get over 32, and that's with premium fuel.....no matter which car you get. They average from 18 (the Phaeton) to the Passatt with 6sp manual at 32. This picking on GM crap is getting old. Toyota sells cars that get worse fuel economy than GM, why isn't anyone carpping about that?

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Old 11-20-2006, 03:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatabbot
Ethanol is a less efficient fuel source than petroleum and the mandated 10% sold in many areas has done nothing to reduce pollution. If ethanol production were up to where it would need to be to make a dent in oil consumption, there would be arguably more environmental damage, not to mention depletion of the midwest's aquifers....
Yeah, but at least we know are money for fuel isn't possibly supporting terrorism and its actually supporting our homeland. And eventually petroleum products will be at a massive shortage. It's better to plan ahead. We could come up with a technology that wouldn't rely on petroleum and wouldn't produce hardly any emissions, it's just that we have chosen not to....the typical lazy American. Cars are focused too much on making it more easier for us to be lazy (like adding extra cup holders, TVs, etc.) instead of things that matter like gas mileage and such. We focus more on how many different buttons a car can have than how efficient it is.

Pretty much anything is possible, it's just someone has to take the effort and time to do it.

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Old 11-20-2006, 03:38 PM   #18
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaturnManiac
Yeah, but at least we know are money for fuel isn't possibly supporting terrorism and its actually supporting our homeland. And eventually petroleum products will be at a massive shortage. It's better to plan ahead. We could come up with a technology that wouldn't rely on petroleum and wouldn't produce hardly any emissions, it's just that we have chosen not to....the typical lazy American. Cars are focused too much on making it more easier for us to be lazy (like adding extra cup holders, TVs, etc.) instead of things that matter like gas mileage and such. We focus more on how many different buttons a car can have than how efficient it is.

Pretty much anything is possible, it's just someone has to take the effort and time to do it.
I agree 100%. I'm just saying E85 vehicles and ethanol aren't the silver bullet that some make it out to be. It's one potential piece to a much larger puzzle.

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Old 11-20-2006, 04:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Consumer Reports on E85...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Consumer Reports 10/2006
But after putting a 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe FFV through an array of fuel economy, acceleration, and emissions tests, and interviewing more than 50 experts on ethanol fuel, CR determined that E85 will cost consumers more money than gasoline and that there are concerns about whether the government’s support of FFVs is really helping the U.S. achieve energy independence.
...
We put the Tahoe through our full series of fuel-economy and acceleration tests while running on each fuel (see our test results). When running on E85 there was no significant change in acceleration. Fuel economy, however, dropped across the board. In highway driving, gas mileage decreased from 21 to 15 mpg; in city driving, it dropped from 9 to 7 mpg.
...
CR Quick Take

Despite the avid support of the Bush administration and major American car companies, E85 is unlikely to fill more than a small percentage of U.S. energy needs.
E85, which is 85 percent ethanol, emits less smog-causing pollutants than gasoline, but provides fewer miles per gallon, costs more, and is hard to find outside the Midwest.

Government support for flexible-fuel vehicles, which can run on E85, is indirectly causing more gasoline consumption rather than less.

Most ethanol is being blended in a 10 percent mix to reduce smog-producing emissions and stretch gasoline supplies.

Link.
Personally, I'd like to see more research into Fuel Cell technology instead of E85.

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Old 11-20-2006, 05:09 PM   #20
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Default Re: will gm ever get better fuel economy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturn_69
I don't understand why everyone bashes GM for fuel economy. Ever looked at VW's numbers? Or Audi's? Except for the diesel's, VW cars don't get over 32, and that's with premium fuel.....no matter which car you get. They average from 18 (the Phaeton) to the Passatt with 6sp manual at 32. This picking on GM crap is getting old. Toyota sells cars that get worse fuel economy than GM, why isn't anyone carpping about that?
They do this because they are the largest automobile corporation in the world and have the resources to be best in every category. They obviously have the engines available worldwide, and the talent. The stumbling block is their attitude that small car buyers [and people who believe fuel economy is important] are chumps and have not or willl not dedicate resources to developing competitive small cars and for keeping them competitive in the market place. Whereas it seems the other companies like Toyota and Honda spread their assets around to always have a small car, or small pick up or fuel efficient mid size, because that first time buyer, if satisfied will come back to the brand for something larger and more profitable.
It is simply frustrating that "good enough" to be competitive has been "good enough" for so long. And the perception of GM as a laggard continues whether other companies mileage is worse or not or whether the facts might say otherwise.
Yes people want to "supersize" everything and to meet the profitable part of the market, attention must be paid to the largest and most gas hungry. But at the expense of passenger cars and small trucks, etc. Where are the profits then ? Are the big rigs supposed to carry the whole company for short term gains? For how long. It's not working. 20 mpg hwy is a joke after all these years and gains in technology and all the companies are criminally negligent when it comes to trying to get the most out of a gallon of gas for every vehicle they sell. GM is the biggest and largest target for the haters out there so it gets the most heat.
I think VW's #s are a disgrace and Chrysler's as well for it's dog ugly Caliber.Did everyone think that the last gas crisis would be the last one ? Fuel saving MDS ? Who are they kidding ?

Last edited by Citation84; 11-20-2006 at 05:21 PM..

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