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Old 10-01-2018, 06:23 PM   #1
Packard
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Default Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

Just wanted to poll the rest of you all if this has been your experience as well. Also maybe we could all start paying attention when removing the filter to see if there is any oil left in it. We can try to figure out which brands are better for anti-drain back.

Last edited by Packard; 10-01-2018 at 06:30 PM..

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Old 10-01-2018, 06:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

Here's a quick way to test an oil filter ADBV, either before or after installation.
1. Find a 3/4-16 bolt, short, with threads all the way to the head of the bolt.
2. Find an o-ring or rubber gasket with 3/4" inside diameter and put it on the bolt.



3. Pour some very thin viscosity oil into the 3/4" threaded hole of the oil filter, which is the filter outlet. Fill it about 1/3 to 1/2 way, don't fill it all the way up. I used a mix of ATF and de-natured alcohol, and also mixed Marvel Mystery oil and Seaform -- About anything thin and colored will work. Using very thin oil is going to make this test only take a few minutes, and obviously if this is a new filter make sure to keep it clean.

4. Thread the 3/4" bolt with rubber gasket into the oil filter, it only needs to be tight enough to slightly compress the rubber o-ring or gasket.

5. Turn the filter so the bolt (and ADBV) is facing down, and set it over a paper towel. Wait several minutes, and look for any drips.







Background: The ADBV is essentially a rubber check valve in the oil filter that keeps oil from draining back through the oil pump and into the oil pan when the engine is off. If it leaks enough oil over a given time, the next cold start will be noisier than normal, and the engine oil lamp will stay lit longer than normal as well. It's a common complaint with many engines, and I suspect there are a significant percentage of filters with significantly leaking ADBV's.

My Results: I've had two badly leaking ADBV's during the 56K miles I've had this Jeep. Both caused cold start noise that was noticed after an oil/filter change (the valve can fail gradually too), and both were fixed by simply replacing the filter. After the last ADBV failure, I came up with this test and tried it on the known bad filter (it was an Amsoil filter that replaced an Amsoil filter that was OK) as well as two new filters in the shop (NAPA 41516 and NAPA 1348). The know bad filter leaked immediately, and the other two were leak free. It isn't a perfect test, but if it fails this test it's almost certainly going to fail in use.

The known good filters were drained, wrapped in saran wrap, and are ready for use. Maybe I'll test some more, it was kind of fun.

Perhaps others will test some filters and post here -- It would be cool to find out if there's a pattern of failure or success with a variety of oil filters.

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Old 10-01-2018, 06:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

The reason I ask is because bob changed the oil and filter there was no oil whatsoever in the filter, even when bob the filter had an anti-drainback. Bobs and phils are told that most wear occurs at start-up, which means you must have a good anti-drainback. But recently in the oil filter tests, Bob has found that flow is really important-a FRAM may be better than a Mobil 1 oil filter when it comes to flow. So an oil filter that has good flow is important. Maybe a K&N would have good oil flow and a good anti-drainback?

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Old 10-01-2018, 08:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

I have been using the Fram Ultra Synthetic for years on my Saturn SL2 at 450,000km and always get a mess of oil out of the filter when I remove them. I put my car on front ramps inclined, slightly loosen the filter but leave it on, then remove the drain plug and let the oil drain in my catch can. I leave the car drain inclined for an hour. When I go back after that hour interval I move my catch can under the filter and spin the filter off. There is always a mess of oil still in the filter and like usual, I always spill some of it as I take the filter completely off.

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Old 10-01-2018, 09:33 PM   #5
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

Packard, since no oil filter mounted in any car is ever suspended upside down as in your test, there will always be oil retained in any filter...sufficient to provide oil protection right at startup. That test is not valid for the premise as stated.

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Old 10-01-2018, 11:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

I must be missing something. My (ugly) L300 is basically a European Vectra with 3.0L V6 engine. Most euro cars have used replaceable oil filter elements. My filter housing sits sideways and usually spills oil out when removing the cap after the oil pan is drained. My guess is European engine design philosophy was to rid canister oil filters in place of filter elements to cut down on metal waste.
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Old 10-02-2018, 12:02 AM   #7
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by toggenburg View Post
Packard, since no oil filter mounted in any car is ever suspended upside down as in your test, there will always be oil retained in any filter...sufficient to provide oil protection right at startup. That test is not valid for the premise as stated.
But...that's exactly how '05-'13 Taco's put the filter. Rather dumb, but if Toyota does it it can't be all bad...lol

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Old 10-02-2018, 08:04 AM   #8
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

Fetch, if that's a spin on filter, then I stand corrected, but isn't that metal cap, just covering a drop-in cartridge? If a standard filter, then what a mess when it is removed!

By the way, that photo reminds me of the LW200 I had....just a drop in not a spin on filter.

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Old 10-02-2018, 09:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

^ ^ ^ that's an oil filter "socket" - cap wrench for removing the filter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toggenburg View Post
Packard, since no oil filter mounted in any car is ever suspended upside down as in your test, there will always be oil retained in any filter...
Early Mazda RX7 had the oil filter 100% vertical (not angled at all). Not sure if they kept this or changed it in later years. To change the oil, you punched a hole in the filter to drain the oil. Also required special plugs (3 or 4 side electrodes), but only two of them - rotary engines were my introduction to oil burners

Porsche 944 (and 924 with 2.5l engine) - slightly angled from vertical / upside down. Makes a mess, generally - poor engineering, IMO. You have to hold a plastic grocery bag tightly against the mount, under the oil filter, to catch most of the oil and wipe up immediately after removal, otherwise oil gets everywhere

This is the turbo (951) engine, could not find an NA pic



Not seeing the pic, will try an upload. Note the heat shield, required to keep the hot exhaust from overheating the oil.
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Last edited by alordofchaos; 10-02-2018 at 09:43 AM..

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Old 10-02-2018, 10:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by toggenburg View Post
Fetch, if that's a spin on filter, then I stand corrected, but isn't that metal cap, just covering a drop-in cartridge? If a standard filter, then what a mess when it is removed!

By the way, that photo reminds me of the LW200 I had....just a drop in not a spin on filter.
Standard style spin on filter with a wrench adapter on top. Has a series of shoots/slides for the oil to pour out of once you loosen it up, didn't watch my dad do his oil change so I'm not sure of the mess it made but he was happy to not have to spend so much time under his truck.

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Old 10-02-2018, 12:19 PM   #11
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

I got side tracked and forgot to respond to the OP

I've only used PureOne PL20195 in my two Saturns, never an issue with the valve and always plenty of oil in the filter when changing.

My old van had an upright filter. It was beautiful, I could remove it without getting under the car, and if I was careful, never spilled a drop. No anti drainback valve needed because of the position - always stayed full of oil

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Old 10-02-2018, 12:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

Drain back valves are designed to stop oil, not a mixture of solvents and a bit of ATF.

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Old 10-03-2018, 02:05 PM   #13
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

Question on the oil filters pressure relief valve P.S.I. Do I want high P.S.I or Low P.S.I. on
the oil filter pressure relief valve. I have done some research and there are some filters
with 12 to 13 or 14 P.S.I. and some with lower P.S.I. like 7 to 8 pounds, which is better for
the Engine on cold start up high or low? ? ? I know there a lot of filters on the market like
Purolator - Mobil 1 - K&N - Fram - Amsoil - Walmart, even has one that is for Harley's I am
just trying to find out the differences from brand to brand,
Hope this response will help you....I specialise in the design of hydraulic systems and filtration is, obviously, a very key aspect of good system design and reliability.

The pressure that is quoted with these filters is the bypass pressure. To be pedantic, that is different to a relief valve. I relief valve will divert oil back to the crank case if a maximum pressure is exceeded, hence starving the key components in the engine the lubrication they need to perform reliably.

A bypass valve essentially allows the lubricant to take an alternative path to the engine instead of passing through the filter.

So, why is a bypass valve fitted?

Firstly, a pressure relief valve is fitted immediately after the pump. The function of the relief valve is to protect the pump in case there is a complete blockage in the oil supply lines somewhere downstream of the pump. In such a case the oil will not make it to the engine and severe damage will occur should this continue for any length of time. Ideally, one would recognise that there is something amiss and stop immediately. The cause of the blockage would be resolved and everything would be back to normal.

The bypass valve is an integral part of the filter and measures the pressure drop across the filter, not the supply pressure from the pump. In the case of a new filter, lets assume for now this is zero, in other words the filter itself is not posing any resistance to flow that passes through it.

As the filter starts to clog up, so resistance goes up and so does the associated pressure drop across the filter element itself. If you continue with a dirty filter and allow to clog up more and more, then ultimately one of 2 scenarios will arise:

The element itself will collapse as it is not designed to withstand such pressure. The result would be all that accumuted dirt PLUS the element material itself hits the key tolerance parts in an engine at the same time which would not be good.

Alterntively, if the element is strong enough, pressure on the outlet of the pump builds up (trying to force fluid through a blocked element) until the relief valve pressure is reached and then flow diverts back to the crankcase. This means the engine is now starved of oil.

To protect against these 2 scenarios the element is fitted with a bypass. This valve would crack open at a pressure lower than the relief valve and lower than the pressure that would bomb the element itself, but...the oil flowing through the bypass valve is not filtered. Call this a lesser evil...

In getting back to your key point, which one should I use - you really need to know what the relief valve pressure is and what pressure is required in the engine itself to function correctly. I dont have my manual here and couldnt find the answer in a quick search.

There is a further complication that you allude to in your OP. when you first start a cold bike the oil viscosity is very high compared to when you have reached running temperature. This results in a much higher pressure drop across the filter as you are trying to pump treacle instead of water through a restriction. This means that there is a risk that you will bypass the filter at start up but then pass through the filter as the oil warms up.

So, in summary, i cannot give you a definitive answer as we don't have all the key info (ie what is relief valve pressure and what is "normal running pressure - whatever that is given the oil temp variance???"). We tend to talk about "system matched filtration", so my advice would be to use the OE element, or in the absence of that make sure you match bypass cracking pressure (I dont think a couple of psi is an issue because I doubt the cracking pressure specified is accurate to within a couple of psi anyway) and micron rating, or in the absence of that do a lot of research before deviating from this spec.

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Old 10-03-2018, 03:57 PM   #14
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Default Re: Anti drain back valve test failed on wix filters

The bypass opens when the Dp across the filter element exceeds the setpoint. Basically it never opens if you change the filter as recommended and you want the 7-8psi bypass setting or in the event of a clogged filter you will have no oil to the bearings at idle.

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