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Old 02-05-2019, 08:35 PM   #61
Silverblu02SL2
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Starter terminals cleaned/ greased and properly tightened. It works fine and does not need replacement IMO.

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Old 02-05-2019, 09:21 PM   #62
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2 View Post
I've taken all the body grounds grounds off to clean and lube to prevent corrosion. They were all good and tight and corrosion free. I got under to do the starter motor connections and found the 8 mm nut from the ignition and the 13 mm nut on the battery + terminal was not on very tight. I think the no click/ no crank on that 15 F day was due to the loose connection plus a battery at 60% charge. Metal shrinks with the extreme cold on that day making the +12 terminal even looser.

This is the pic of the starter before cleaning the terminals. The starter does not look oil soaked.



Where is the overflow on the cam cover and why would there be an overflow?
Last picture, see that depression? It is there so overflow does not end up in the plug wells.

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Old 02-05-2019, 09:25 PM   #63
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Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Nice to know the easiest repairs can be as simple as cleaning and tightening connections loosened over time.

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Old 02-05-2019, 09:44 PM   #64
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Last picture, see that depression? It is there so overflow does not end up in the plug wells.
In my mind, an overflow comes out the highest point, which would be the lip of the filler opening. That's why I had a hard time finding one. What you call an overflow would be more appropriately called a duct.

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Old 02-06-2019, 12:51 PM   #65
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Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Nice to know the easiest repairs can be as simple as cleaning and tightening connections loosened over time.
I was never a throw parts at it DIY'er. I prefer to use every bit of info available to me to find the root cause of a problem.

- The starter is oil free. It being oil soaked from the "oil filler overflow" is not valid.

- At 62k miles with a good running engine, the starter should not be worn out

- per the stack of maintenance receipts I have, the starter has never been replaced. The loose electrical lug nuts on the starter is from the factory, it is my best guess diagnosis so far for the no click/ no crank on that 15 F day. Next time it gets to 15F and below, I will see if it still has the same issue after tightening the nuts.

Interesting fact about this car:
Per receipt 9/2002 at 2700 miles, car was brought into Saturn under warranty

customer states: "hard to start"
cause: overheat
Tech comm: Tech found temperature sensor out of range.
Replace temperature sensor and verified correction.
21025106 sensor, PCM engine coolant temperature

I thought in 2002, Saturns should already have the upgraded ECTS with the brass tip?

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Old 02-06-2019, 12:59 PM   #66
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2002 SC2
1998 SL2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2 View Post
Interesting fact about this car:
Per receipt 9/2002 at 2700 miles, car was brought into Saturn under warranty

customer states: "hard to start"
cause: overheat
Tech comm: Tech found temperature sensor out of range.
Replace temperature sensor and verified correction.
21025106 sensor, PCM engine coolant temperature

I thought in 2002, Saturns should already have the upgraded ECTS with the brass tip?
Yes, folks here agree that it happened sometime in the 2001 model year as a running change. There is a thread somewhere, where I asked people with a 2001 model year to post production dates fi they were original owners with a brass ECTS - trying to narrow down when the change was made.

Even if it was the old, resin-tipped sensor, it should not have failed in 2,700 miles / less than several years, unless it was defective from the factory.

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Old 02-06-2019, 01:12 PM   #67
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

The ECTS brass body sensor is just an industrial grade NTC thermistor stuck into a blob of thermal grease and a thin plastic sleeve to hopefully prevent the 2 conductors from grounding against the brass shell. Contrary to the belief of many the thermistor is not a forever part, they do fail and they fail at a rate that periodic replacement is a recommended activity.

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Old 02-06-2019, 01:29 PM   #68
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Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

With no one standing next to you or your car, its difficult to imagine loose connections as the main cause of sub freezing no start issues. I'm guilty of contributing to suggestions of starter repairs if checking the basics doesn't reveal something.

A GM service bulletin was issued years later about original coolant sensors in the S-series. '01 was the cutoff and most likely the year of the bulletin. Since '02 was the last year of the S-series, the Saturn dealer tech may have used a scantool to display temps and simply made a judgement call to replace the coolant sensor, a la "when in doubt, swap out out....." From a non electronics view most vehicle owners trust sensors as an act of faith.
My understanding of electronics and how each sensor works in its environment forced me to keep a leery eye on things and use whatever tools and equipment to monitor them. One of the first things I did after receiving an OBD II reader was to log baseline data for use later. It was used to help a member determine a faulty maf sensor. Without this member using his reader and comparing his sensor data to baseline info, it would have been more difficult to determine fault.

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Old 02-06-2019, 03:03 PM   #69
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Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Just came back from an Interstate battery distributor, they tested the battery to be good.

In chronological order:

A week before, I trickled charged the battery w 2 Amp setting for 24 hours since the car is new to me, not because of any starting problems.

I drove the car the day before the 15F day no click/ no crank, radio and dash lights was ok, measured battery voltage at 12.4 V with a DVM

Charged battery for about 5 hours at 10 A setting. at around 7 pm still @ 15F, still no click/ no crank.

Next day it warmed up to around 35 F, car basked in the sun for a few hours so engine was warmer than 35F. car started right up

Charged battery again, went to Autozone the next day for a battery load test. Autozone load test says battery no good.

Bought Harbor Freight battery load tester, battery tested good marginally.

Cleaned and lubed all chassis grounds and battery connections

Cleaned starter motor electrical connections, found 8 mm nut for key switch and 13 mm nut for power from battery not tight enough IMO (2 fingers on a 1/4" ratchet loosened the 13 mm nut easily).

Interstate Battery distributor tested battery to be good.

No problem starting the car since the day after the 15F day.

Based on the above, what do you think was the root cause of the no click/ no start?

Out of curiosity, I am going back to Autozone for a re-test.

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Old 02-06-2019, 03:30 PM   #70
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2 View Post
Just came back from an Interstate battery distributor, they tested the battery to be good.

In chronological order:

A week before, I trickled charged the battery w 2 Amp setting for 24 hours since the car is new to me, not because of any starting problems.

I drove the car the day before the 15F day no click/ no crank, radio and dash lights was ok, measured battery voltage at 12.4 V with a DVM

Charged battery for about 5 hours at 10 A setting. at around 7 pm still @ 15F, still no click/ no crank.

Next day it warmed up to around 35 F, car basked in the sun for a few hours so engine was warmer than 35F. car started right up

Charged battery again, went to Autozone the next day for a battery load test. Autozone load test says battery no good.

Bought Harbor Freight battery load tester, battery tested good marginally.

Cleaned and lubed all chassis grounds and battery connections

Cleaned starter motor electrical connections, found 8 mm nut for key switch and 13 mm nut for power from battery not tight enough IMO (2 fingers on a 1/4" ratchet loosened the 13 mm nut easily).

Interstate Battery distributor tested battery to be good.

No problem starting the car since the day after the 15F day.

Based on the above, what do you think was the root cause of the no click/ no start?

Out of curiosity, I am going back to Autozone for a re-test.
can't edit my post any longer
correction:
The 12.4 V measurement was observed right after the no click/ no crank

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Old 02-06-2019, 03:46 PM   #71
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The ECTS brass body sensor is just an industrial grade NTC thermistor stuck into a blob of thermal grease and a thin plastic sleeve to hopefully prevent the 2 conductors from grounding against the brass shell. Contrary to the belief of many the thermistor is not a forever part, they do fail and they fail at a rate that periodic replacement is a recommended activity.
My experience with Thermistor sensors is it depends on how well it was built and quality of the material.

I've had Thermistor sensors that are fine in a 35 year old Mercedes diesel with over 300k miles. I've had ones in a 25 year old VW diesel that failed at 180K because it has a sheet metal jacket that was breached. The Mercedes one is solid brass.

If a temperature gauge reads incorrect, it's the sensor, wiring or gauge, or battery. The sensor is easy to check with an ohm meter, boiling hot water and a thermometer to generate a temperature/ resistance chart.

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Old 02-06-2019, 04:05 PM   #72
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Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Based on your findings and pretty thorough troubleshooting, I'm inclined to believe in loose connections as the reason for the no start symptom, starting with the START (small purple) wire not powering the starter solenoid (no loud click if the starter motor brushes or solenoid windings failed). If the starter solenoid can't power up to pull in the heavy duty contactor to switch battery power to the starter motor, its anyone's guess if the battery cable would conduct amperage to the starter motor. At the least, once you found the starter free of any large oil leaks to invade and contaminate the starter, used a hands on approach to find loose hardware and tightened things up and charged the battery to find starting no longer an issue, I think you made an easy fix.

Whether diesel or gas, starters and batteries are similar in characteristic starting scenarios with the exception of using a glow plug in cold weather to heat up diesel/ignite it. It's always good to get second, third and fourth opinions with battery tests. Voltage monitoring may be the only clue in cold winter temps before starting. While no one can correlate whether or not voltage, temperature drops and losing reserve battery power ends up as a dead or failing battery, three only thing we can do I cold weather is either monitor battery voltages daily/weekly/never or plug in a trickle charger every night. Jumper cables for backup.

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Old 02-06-2019, 04:25 PM   #73
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Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

I'd assume the starter lug nuts were done by hand and not robots at the factory due to tight access? A torque wrench was probably not used due to the tight access? The particular operator was probably not trained properly as to how tight to fasten those nuts?

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Old 02-06-2019, 06:37 PM   #74
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Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Pure speculation on how Saturns were assembled but if I'm not mistaken, Saturn began as a non union operation. Whether union or not, factory assembly lines were still labor intensive with few automation where hazards ruled out humans. Presuming engine assembly was a separate line, its inconceivable to have engines built by hand for anyone to miss procedural tightening sequences. Assembling engines is expected to be straight forward with few issues in the hands of experienced people but there are occasions for lapses - human error. I would guess electric torque wrenches weren't invented yet and training involved hand eye coordination along with 'just right' tightening without need for torque wrenches everywhere.

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Old 02-07-2019, 06:16 PM   #75
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoFistedJustic View Post
P0410 is your secondary air pump. It acts similarly to a choke on a carburetor (not the same, just similarly). It won't prevent the car from starting. If it is disconnected, it will cause the engine to idle high and kill your fuel economy.

The part that is most likely causing this code is that itty bitty plastic hose that runs across the passenger side of the valve cover. You need to get some "emissions tubing" from your FLAPS and cut a length to fit both ends. The stuff on your car is likely brittle and broken. The new stuff is flexible, but will become brittle in time. You can use a little shrink tubing to improve the seal. Once the tubing is replaced, the P0410 code should go away.
You were right on! Here's a pic of my dirty engine from Jan 28, 2019 which shows an intact itty bitty plastic tube (that goes over the left side of the cam cover). I found that hose broken right in the middle. Must have happened on that real cold 15 F day when plastic was very brittle, along with my no crank no start problem!

I put a rubber vacuum connector I have from my parts stash for my Mercedes diesel to splice the broken line and the code P0410 has not returned since cleared!


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Old 02-07-2019, 07:14 PM   #76
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

broken vacuum line

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Old 02-07-2019, 07:28 PM   #77
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Broken line spliced with vacuum connector. On the left, you can see wires connected across air pump connector, running up to a super bright blue LED taped to windshield to monitor when the air pump is running.

Car is running really well!

ps. I didn't wash the engine. I just used a greasy/ oily rag and wiped the grime away every time I worked on it, little by little. Oil and grease is a great solvent! Just need a little elbow grease!

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Last edited by Silverblu02SL2; 02-07-2019 at 07:34 PM..

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Old 02-07-2019, 07:52 PM   #78
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

While troubleshooting P0410, before I found the broken plastic vacuum line (which was probably just cracked before separating clearly), I did take apart the pipe that connects the combination valve to the exh manifold. It was clear, no carbon buildup!


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Old 02-07-2019, 10:24 PM   #79
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Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

You can buy hard vacuum tubing and replace it, as you may find that the old tubing will break in more places as you attempt to repair it.
I bought a roll for $15 at advanced auto, took a piece in a matched it up. It came in a roll and I did my best to make it look factory.

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Old 02-19-2019, 11:57 PM   #80
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Default Re: Engine won't crank, 2002 SL2

Just following up on the "Engine won't crank". The starter motor has been working fine since I tightened its electrical lug nuts. Still waiting for a 15 F day (or below) to see if it will have a repeat of the no click/ no crank that day.

I have since had the battery load tested by Interstate and Autozone (again), both passed. I don't know why it failed the first Autozone test. My guess
operator error, probably did not make a good connection to the battery terminals.

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