1999 SL2 - Vehicle revs past 2000 RPM when putting in park. Why?

[2002SaturnMan]

My wife's 1999 SL2 is acting up. When I put it in park it will rev up a bit past 2,000 RPM before it settles back down. It also will rev a little when put in to drive, or reverse, but not that much.

Any idea what could be causing this? I'm the largest DIY novice you could know. It was in 2007 that people here helped me figure out how to remove my EGR sensor and fix it after getting a P0404 code on my 2002 SL1, so I don't know very much. All I can say is I don't want to have to take it to the dealership and get a $500 bill for the fix I could have probably done myself (with help from you guys).

Any suggestions on what to look for first?

Yesterday I put in some carb cleaner in the gas tank, and then filled it in hopes that it would resolve the problem.

As I'm typing I also have disconnected the negative terminal on the battery hoping that after leaving it off for 15 minutes maybe it was just a computer problem that will be reset after it's been unplugged....... I know, I'm pulling at straws, but then I thought I'd post here.

Thank you very much for your help. Any links to pictures on this website on how to do what you suggest would also be a lot of help!

[2002SaturnMan]

Also I should mention that when I leave the car in park and I jam on the gas peddel really hard, I would expect it to rev up at a constant hum sound, but the car doesn't do that. When I hammer the gas at the highest level the RPM's go to a little over 4,000 and I get a...........

Rmmmmmmm, Rmmmmmm, Rmmmmmmmm, Rmmmmmmmmm Like it's choaking on something ever 1 second or so.

?????

Thank you.

[off-track]

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

Also I should mention that when I leave the car in park and I jam on the gas peddel really hard, I would expect it to rev up at a constant hum sound, but the car doesn't do that. When I hammer the gas at the highest level the RPM's go to a little over 4,000

You're hitting the out of gear rev limiter. Normal.. but, why would you floor it in park anyhow?

2K seems a little high but it sounds to me like the Idle air control (IAC) is gummed up. I'd suggest you clean the throttle body. This series of videos show the process very well. Pay particular attention to that section at the end of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApNTQs6GzcY

[OldNuc]

Exactly where does your temperature gauge read? Have you ever changed the ECTS?

[2002SaturnMan]

Originally Posted by OldNuc

Exactly where does your temperature gauge read? Have you ever changed the ECTS?

Temp gauge on the dashboard? It can read cold (after a night in the garage in Michigan) or warm. The probelm is the same.

ECTS. Not sure what that is, so I can probably guess it was never changed.

Thank you.

[OldNuc]

Let me clarify. What does your temperature gauge read when the car is fully warmed up and you are driving at 35 to 45 mph with the heater blower shut off?

Take the Forum Jump at the bottom of this page and select How-To Library and read the first 3 posts. The ECTS is covered there and is probably most of your problem

[2002SaturnMan]

Ok. I read the stuff about the Engine Coolant Temp Sensor, but I'm wondering how this will cause the RPM's to be high when we put the car in park, especially when the engine is cold????? As I said I'm a newbie.


Cleaning the throttle body might be beyond what I can do with out having the car ending up being a paperweight when I'm done.

Any other suggestions?

Thank you again for all your help!

[off-track]

ON's asking what your temp gauge reads. We're looking for something more than 1/4 on the dash gauge to rule out a thermostat problem.

Naw, the TB cleaning is really easy to do. Two bolts and it's off. ECTS, a little more involved but still not a big deal, the cracked resin one can lead to strange engine behavior .

[fdryer]

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

Ok. I read the stuff about the Engine Coolant Temp Sensor, but I'm wondering how this will cause the RPM's to be high when we put the car in park, especially when the engine is cold????? As I said I'm a newbie.

As a newbie and unfamiliar with electronic fuel injections systems, the original coolant sensor fails, usually leaving the engine to run with a rich fuel mixture as if the engine were cold ALL the time. That's your symptom you're describing. EFI systems depends heavily on all its sensors in order to run an engine. It only takes one failed sensor to confuse EFI systems. The S-series cars have been plagued with faulty original coolant sensors and the permanent repair is replacing it with the brass one from any auto store stocking it. As the NIKE commercial goes, "Just Do It!"

As mentioned before, unless you're running a NASCAR racing engine, there's no point to revving a stock car engine as there's been a rev limiter to prevent the unknowing from doing irreparable damage to their engines if allowed to free rev when something lets go only to find out there is a limit when an engine blows up.

[mrnumi]

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

Cleaning the throttle body might be beyond what I can do with out having the car ending up being a paperweight when I'm done.

Actually, cleaning the throttle body is ridiculously easy. I just did mine myself yesterday. You just need some throttle body cleaner, a 10mm socket or wrench, some torx bits (can't remember the exact size now), a pair of tongue-and-groove pliers to loosen the hose clamps, a toothbrush, some rags, and a pair of gloves. There's 3 excellent videos in the How To section by Richpin.

[2002SaturnMan]

To answer the question about the temp guage............ It happens all the time, but yesterday I was driving about 35 mph and the temp guage on the dash never got to the 1/4 line from cold (we live in Michigan and it's cold here now). I probably did have the heater on at the time though.

I went to autozone and asked them to check the computer for codes (even though the SES light has not come on). They hooked up the computer and there were NO codes. The guy told me that because of all the sensors in a Saturn that if ANYTHING was going wrong that the computer should have held a code for it - but yet there were no codes present. He thought that it could possibly be something wrong with the computer?????

I actually went there to get the coolant temp sensor and I was going to "attempt" to figure out how to install a new one. Needless to say I didn't buy anything after I heard what he had to say.

Anyway, the car is MESSED UP! I changed the oil last Sunday and my wife said the problem started Monday morning on her way to work. I did add a bit (3/4 quart) too much oil before I realized after pouring 4 3/4 quarts in that I should check the stick. I saw that I was a bit over the "full" line on the stick, but since this car burns at least 1 qt of oil every 800 to 1,000 miles I didn't think being a little over the line was a huge deal. Could this "possibly" be my issue with the engine running funny? I believe in the past that the car must only take 4 qts of oil with an oil change.

When I was driving yesterday and slowed down for a stop sign I felt like the car didn't want to slow down but instead speed up. Pushing on the brake actually didn't fell right (like the car was fighting against the brakes). Then of course when I put the vehicle in park the RPM's would increase to about 2,000 before they could calm back down (like a normal car would) and I would turn the vehicle off.

Unfortunately we don't have a Saturn dealer in my city. When I've taken the car to the local GM dealer (twice in 3 years), it ends up sitting there for 2 days while they wait for parts to come in from the Saturn dealer, and I end up paying through the teeth!!!!

I'm just at a total loss on this. I don't want my wife to get hurt or killed, and I don't have a clue if it's safe to let her drive her car???? I'd let her drive mine, but it's a stick and she doesn't know how to drive one, and is too scared to learn.

So is the autozone guy right? If there was something wrong with any of the sensors the computer should have stored a code?

Please help.

Thank you very much!!!!!!

[OldNuc]

The Autozone Guy is flat wrong, and that is only the half of it.

Now, moving right along. The ECTS is probably bad. You need a new one. The dealer will charge well over 100.00 to replace it. You can do it in an hour if you have never done anything like this before. Proper preparation is the key.

Take the forum jump at the bottom of this page and read the first 3 posts. The first one is an index and links to all of the richpin DIY videos. Then read the next 2 posts that deal with ECTS replacement. The part costs 10.00 and if you do not have the right tools, you need a 1/4" 13mm deep socket and you can buy that at Harbor Freight or Sears. Both stores have a 1/4" drive metric socket set with deep sockets. Be sure that they have a 13mm socket.

The one thing that is not stressed in the How-To Library posts is that the ECTS connector also must be very carefully inspected for any corrosion in the connectors themselves. Buy a can of CRC Electrical Parts Cleaner (its in a red can) when you pick up the new ECTS. You can flush out the connector with this cleaner if it looks OK. If its green then it will have to be replaced.

The extra oil is not the problem.

If you have read the posts on the ECTS and watched the video then let the car cool off, release any pressure in the cooling system by opening and then closing the reservoir cap, and replace the ECTS. If a bit confused ask questions. The car is probably quite safe to drive but is a bit of a pain with the high idle. Turn the heater blower back to 2 and set the heat at just into the red and the engine will get warmer and the idle will come down a bit.

[2002SaturnMan]

OldNuc - Thank you for your reply and vote of confidence. I'm going to closely read the 3 threads you mentioned and then head off to AutoZone to get the part.

Couple questions to start with.........

It's a 1999 SL2 twin cam 16 valve. I believe when I stand on the drivers side of the vehicle and shine a flashlight under the plastic air intake (I think that's what you call it). I believe I can see the connector directly under the EGR Valve and it goes horizontally into the cylinder.

The video is probably the:
Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor R&R Saturn S-series
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC0U53w_Htk

Ok I watched the video and it looks as easy as pie!!! But is it ever??? Not for me.

1. So I probably should remove the air intake thing (which I've done on my 2002 SL1 and that isn't a problem), right? That will give me better access to the ECTS under the EGR valve.

2. Do I really need the teflon tape as he showed in the video? I might have some around the house, I just need to check.

I also watched the first video on how to replace the connector (which needs to be soldered) which would be more than I would be able to do. I will pray that mine isn't corroded (green) inside.

3. Where do you want me to spray the CRC Electrical parts cleaner? I'm assuming in the female end that the ECTS plugs into (the black top connector with the wires), right? How do I dry it out inside after flushing it? Or can I just plug it right in to the ECTS?

4. In the video he says that some coolant will come out of the hole where the old ECTS is at. Will it just keep flowing out until I put the new one in? Should I purchase a gallon of coolant incase I loose some? If so, with a stone cold engine - how to I determine how much to add? (The car has been in our garage all night and I'll do it in the next hour as soon as I return from the store).

Thank you very much again for your help. I hope you are online right now.

:-)

[OldNuc]

received your PM and replied directly. Sounds like you should be good to go.

[2002SaturnMan]

THIS DIDN'T SOLVE MY PROBLEM.


[QUOTE=OldNuc]

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

Hello.

I hope you are online right now I posted you a question in the thread......... "1999 SL2 - Vehicle revs past 2000 RPM when putting in park. Why?"
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...=1#post1392136



OldNuc - Thank you for your reply and vote of confidence. I'm going to closely read the 3 threads you mentioned and then head off to AutoZone to get the part.

That is the way to do this. Plan ahead.

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

Couple questions to start with.........

It's a 1999 SL2 twin cam 16 valve. I believe when I stand on the drivers side of the vehicle and shine a flashlight under the plastic air intake (I think that's what you call it). I believe I can see the connector directly under the EGR Valve and it goes horizontally into the cylinder.

Yes, thats it. To get the connector off you squeeze its ears in. That makes absolutely no sense I know. So, go up to the filter box on the front of that box down low ther is the IAT sensor, intake air temperature and it has the same connector. You can see it and when you look you will see on its bottom edge an ear, there is another on the other side, just squeeze the ears and the connector slides off. It will only go back on the right way and ther are 2 identical right ways 180m degrees apart. practice till you can get the connector off without watching what you are doing.

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

The video is probably the:
Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor R&R Saturn S-series
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC0U53w_Htk

Ok I watched the video and it looks as easy as pie!!! But is it ever??? Not for me.

It really is easy.

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

1. So I probably should remove the air intake thing (which I've done on my 2002 SL1 and that isn't a problem), right? That will give me better access to the ECTS under the EGR valve.

Yes, you want all the room you can get. When you remove the old sensor some antifreeze will run out. To cut down on the panic this causes do the following: Relieve the cooling system pressure by removing and then replacing the reservoir cap. Jack the left side of the car up as high as you can get it. Less will run out, if any at all.

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

2. Do I really need the teflon tape as he showed in the video? I might have some around the house, I just need to check.

Stop buy the hardware store and buy a tube of teflon paste pipe dope. It will be much easier to work with. the tape tends to come off just as you stick the sensor in the hole.

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

I also watched the first video on how to replace the connector (which needs to be soldered) which would be more than I would be able to do. I will pray that mine isn't corroded (green) inside.

Buy the can of CRC Electrical Parts Cleaner 9red can) and if its green flush it out and take the end of a round tooth pick to the 2 holes. Don't jam it in ther just scrub out the green on the brass connector. It does come off and it will probably survive. You will end up using most of the can.

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

3. Where do you want me to spray the CRC Electrical parts cleaner? I'm assuming in the female end that the ECTS plugs into (the black top connector with the wires), right? How do I dry it out inside after flushing it? Or can I just plug it right in to the ECTS?

The cleaner goes into the 2 hole side of the connector. It will evaporate and it is a non conductor so absolute dry is not required. Being corrosion free is though. The pin openings in the plug are tapered on the open end and if they are clean the ECTS pins will make the connection.

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

4. In the video he says that some coolant will come out of the hole where the old ECTS is at. Will it just keep flowing out until I put the new one in? Should I purchase a gallon of coolant incase I loose some? If so, with a stone cold engine - how to I determine how much to add? (The car has been in our garage all night and I'll do it in the next hour as soon as I return from the store).{/quote]

See above for how to prevent loss of coolant. If you loose any you just add straight coolant of the same color as you have now, probably orange Dex-Cool until the level in the reservoir is about 1/8" over the weir in the tank. Thats the wall you see when you look straight down into it.

Well I was out in the garage under the car but you should be good to go. One thing that gets shuffled off in this job. You put the new sensor with the threads coated with the paste in the end of your socket and start it into the hole by hand, no ratchet. Turn it in by hand till its tight, then put the ratchet on it and turn it a bit farther, maybe a turn but do not force it at all as they are thin and will break. If it leaks later it is much easier to tighten it than it is to remove the broke part.

I will check back later and I am sure that you have received advice from the other members.

Rich

[2002SaturnMan]

Ok here's the update................

It took me longer to find a 13mm deep socket than to take the car apart and put it back together!!!! No Joke!

Total time was under 30 minutes under the hood.

Anyway, I just read your PM reply (after I finished the project). Thank you so much for all your help but.............................

Remeber we bought the car used about 3 years (about 36,000 miles ago). Current mileage is 117,300.

The car is acting a little better, but only 50% better. I looked inside of the connector and I could tell that it had been replaced (I could see where the 2 wires had been cut and spliced in the new connector. The inside of the connector was TOTALLY clean. No greens stuff or anything else! Also the sensor that I removed looks just like the one I just installed (brass) except that it had the red stuff on the threads that Richpin's said would be an OEM part - So that must have been replace in the past as well (assuming the original was plastic).

I drove the car about 10 miles round trip, engine got warm (up to 1/4 on the dashboard temp guage). Car didn't seem to fight me when I pressed the brakes (50% of the time - but still did seem like it wanted to fight). RPM's go to a little less 2,000 when starting the car or putting it in park. But when I'm at a complete stop, the car is on, in drive and my foot on the brake - when I put it in park it still wants to rev up a little bit. From about 1,000 RPM's to almost 2,000 RPM's.

BTW, I did use the teflon tape without problems, and didn't get the electronic cleaner stuff because the inside of the plug looked as clean as could be.

So what's the next idea to try????? It's better, but still not right.

Thank you so much for giving me the courage to change the ECTS. It was a total joke! I almost think it was easier to do than change the oil - especially since I didn't need to work from under the car! LOL!.

So where to from here?

Thank you again!

[OldNuc]

The temperature should go to 3/8. How did they splice in the new connector? Crimp connectors or are the splices soldered? Run the heatup test with the car in park idling that I describe below and lets see what happens. You can check for a vacuum leak but based on the fact that the ECTS has been changed already I am leaning to something else.

Ok, well that s both the good and the bad of it. Does the temperature come up to 3/8 when you let the car sit and idle in park or neutral? If it does thats a good sign that the signal is getting to the PCM. Watch it sit and idle until the fan comes on. this should happen at a bit above 1/2. That will tell you that the ECTS is working. The next thing that will cause your problem is a vacuum leak. This could be nothing more than a stuck PCV valve so pull it out of the cam cover and put your thumb over the hole in the end of it. If the idle does not drop back to normal then its time to look for a vacuum leak. If you still have some electrical cleaner yiou can gently spritz tat along the joint between the head and intake right where the gasket is. If you have a leak the cleaner will seal it up and the idle will drop. You also want to check the hose from the intake to the brake booster and the PCV connector hose. Spray a bit of cleaner around ther joint between the throttle body and the intake.

A failure to heat up to 3/8 when moving would indicate either a high resistance splice in the ECTS wiring or a failed thermostat or both.

[fdryer]

The one-two punch that was never mentioned was not only to replace the ects but the thermostat, a new 195F one. What no one's putting together for most of these coolant sensor problems is that the coolant sensor only reads coolant temperatures to tell the PCM. If the thermostat is operating cooler than normal, the new coolant sensor is just reporting the correct temps but cooler than ideal operating conditions. Replace the thermostat and the engine should idle back down between 800-900rpm. The ects was only one issue and the thermostat is the other one that still affects engine operating conditions.

[OldNuc]

Its not been missed...

[fdryer]

Originally Posted by 2002SaturnMan

...I drove the car about 10 miles round trip, engine got warm (up to 1/4 on the dashboard temp guage).

Seems to me it was missed..............