![]() |
|
|
View Poll Results: Should GM Import the Opel Astra from Europe as Saturn's Next Small Car? | |||
Yes! |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
81 | 63.78% |
No Way! |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
32 | 25.20% |
I Don't Care... |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
14 | 11.02% |
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
![]() |
#101 | |||||
Master Member
![]() |
![]() Quote:
![]() ... "That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have" - H.D. Thoreau
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links |
![]() |
#102 | |||||
Advanced Member
![]() |
![]() Quote:
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#103 | |||||
Administrator
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() Quote:
Charlie ... 2008 Saturn Outlook XR 2005 VUE Red Line 2002 L300 (sold)
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#104 | ||||||
Master Member
![]() |
![]() Quote:
![]() Quote:
Americans mainly don't like hatchbacks because they're set hard in their ways and are remember the hatches of the 70's. ![]() ... "It's a car. We've invented the Pontiac Aztek."
|
||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#105 | ||||
Member
![]() |
![]() It would be awesome. The Astra is more or less the same "size" as the Ion so it would make a great replacement for the next gen of the car.
and they could still have the VXR version, but we'd just call it the Redline. It is already established and all the kinks are already hammered out. But please please please at least equip it with some sort of LSD or TC because as I've seen that it likes to smoke its inside tire on tighter corners. Will we also get the Turbo 16 valve, 6-speed gearbox and 240 HP???? ![]()
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#106 | ||||
Master Member
![]() ![]() |
![]() I would think that a QC having no mid section door posts would be at least as "unsafe" as a hatchback. The "B" pillar is equally as important as the C and a hatch back would still have BOTH. There's nothing on the sides in a QC. That doesn't make me feel very "safe". And that's what it boils down to: conjecture and supposition, not anything to do with an actual fact. The QC does fine in side impact ratings.So would any modern hatchback, especially as the opening around the hatch would need to be reinforced to carry the body/frame strength of the -unit body.
And it was shown in court that the Pinto was no more prone statistically to fires in rear crashes than the Dodge Colt, Chevy Vega, AMC Gremlin, etc.But I am still glad that the old way of doing things is done with. I wouldn't worry about being less "safe" in a modern hatchback. The reason people don't find them attractive today is that they sort of got the image of being "dorkmobiles". It was less refinement worries than "image" and ego problems.They just weren't "cool" to be seen in, and that stigma remains.It would be interesting to find what the age co-hort of the people thinking a hatchback would be desireable as opposed to those who would not be caught dead in one. They're no longer your father's hatchback ???? Of course no one worried about that with the 3rd generation [1982- 199??]Camaro and it's hatch.
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#107 | |||||
Master Member
![]() |
![]() Quote:
... "That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have" - H.D. Thoreau
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#108 | |||||
Master Member
![]() |
![]() Quote:
... "That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have" - H.D. Thoreau
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#109 | ||||
Advanced Member
![]() |
![]() Europeans probably like hatchbacks for their shorter dimensions and easier parking. That's not generally a problem in the US.
Most SUVs are body on frame construction which results in much lower NHV without increasing stiffness so thier not a valid comparison. Ever see a typical ladder frame pickup off-road? The cab and box can easily be misaligned by an inch in extreme twisting maneuvers. I owned a Saab 99 2 door and 900 hatch at the same time. The 900 was only a front end styling and interior upgrade from the 99. Whenever I jacked up the 900 hatch at the front jack point, the body flexed so much the door wouldn't shut. Just as stiff? I don't think so. A simple demonstration of the problem is a long slender cardboard box. With the ends securely taped, it's quite stiff. Cut the center 95% out and suddenly it's a another story. There is no practical way to stiffen the open end to the same degree it was when taped closed. It will require a stiffening ring with enormously more material than was cut off to even come close. Everything bends, its just a question of how much. More triangulated structures such as trusses provide much more strength and rigidity for a given amount of material than long slender shapes. As an ex-aeropace engineer I feel much more comfortable with the side impact protection of the quad coupe than I would with a hatch. And a final note to hatchback drivers. I hope you are securing your cargo properly with straps/cargo net everytime . In a rollover or severe accident everything back there is a potential loose projectile in the passenger cabin ![]()
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#110 | |||||
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 1,753
|
![]() Quote:
There is little sense talking of body stiffness using vehicles of the past. Giant strides have been made in this area. See the ION for example.
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#111 | |||||
Master Member
![]() ![]() |
![]() Quote:
Using a long slender cardboard box and cutting out 95% of the sides would not prove torsional superiority of a vehicle with no B pillar either. That's just silliness.And doing it long ways proves nothing as well. ![]() No one is cutting out 95% of the roof of a car to build a hatchback. They don't cut and patch any longer. And Saab is known for their robust cars AND their hatchbacks [and their aero engineers]. And their SAFETY.To extrapolate that a hatchback is not as safe and that's why people do not buy them is simply bizarre with all due respect. I would like to see the data on that. Last edited by Citation84; 02-22-2006 at 11:05 AM..
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#112 | |||||
Master Member
![]() |
![]() Quote:
Oh, and for the SUV owners, make sure you secure your rear mounted cargo too. Cargo straps: They aren't just for hatchbacks anymore..... ... "That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have" - H.D. Thoreau Last edited by saturn_69; 02-22-2006 at 11:43 AM..
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#113 | |||||
Master Member
![]() |
![]() Quote:
![]() ... "That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have" - H.D. Thoreau
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#114 | ||||
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 1,753
|
![]() Regarding the ION quad coupe; doesn't it have a virtual B- piller? When the doors are closed the stiffining of the doors and the latches on the floor and roof combine to form a functioning B piller.
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#115 | |||||
Master Member
![]() ![]() |
![]() Quote:
![]() Additionally hatchbacks today use a cargo cover unlike the Monza 2+2s and Pintos and Hornets of the 70s.So no problem letting things flop around back there. You'd have to do that for any vehicle that had the seat folded down and was carrying cargo. The Scion TC is a hatchback.It looks great. Like a Saturn QC IMHO. ![]()
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#116 | ||||
Advanced Member
![]() |
![]() Well I'm sorry I bothered to offer any other viewpoint than "Europeans are more enlightened, make better choices, and have much higher standards than Americans". I'm sorry I even attempted to offer a simple engineering analogy. And there are so many ridiculous assertions in the past few threads its clear I'd be wasting even more time than I already have to offer any rebuttals. People believe what they want to believe. After all, I refuse to assume anything American is crap.
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#117 | |||||
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 1,753
|
![]() Quote:
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#118 | |||||
Member
![]() |
![]() Quote:
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#119 | |||||
Master Member
![]() ![]() |
![]() Quote:
No one said anything American is crap. Where do you get this??? Don't be offended. You are comparing 70s hatch backs with modern vehicles and suggesting that a hatch back may be more "unsafe" is ridiculous to put it politely. You have NO data to back that up, you proved nothing with your cardboard box demonstration. Don't take it out on us because your opinion was found to be based on inaccurate out of date information and rank supposition.A "feeling" as it were. Not based in any sort of reality. I doubt the relative safety was ever even considered by people in the market for a hatchback.Not even an issue. Because there is no evidence that this body style is any less safe than any other except your claim that it's so. And no one here was rude in the way they presented their opinions. To put it plainly: Any hatchback that was produced here or offered here in the US would have to meet the same federal crash standards as any other car.And it is ironic that you would be so concerned about driving a hatchback while your own QC is without a B pillar [albeit it has a "virtual" one] itself. So using your logic it must be less safe than a standard ION sedan. I was being absurd to demonstrate your absurd thinking. It has obviously been engineered to meet all federal crash standards.As would any hatchback sold here in the US, homegrown or imported.
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#120 | ||||
Master Member
![]() ![]() |
![]() Additionally:I did the cardboard box test. [Being the UN-PC old curmudgeon that I am I used a cigarette carton,btw]
Yes cutting 95 % of the top out will weaken the structure. But CARS ARE NOT BUILT THAT WAY.They have an A pillar a B pillar and a C pillar even in a hatchback. When you cut 25% to one third of the top as in what would represent a hatch, and more realistically the proportion of hatch to vehicle,similar to the way a car is actually built there is very little difference in the strength of the box. Even when you cut half way down the back vertically and across, to mimic the rear end opening of a vehicle, where the hatch meets the rear frame there is little structural difference. To assume the engineers would not compensate for this is just foolish.By the time the car made it to production there would be very little if any lack of integrity. Again: this is not the 70s!!! And if there was any slight loss of structural integrity, there certainly would not the sort to engender fear, misguided concern, and to justify spreading mis information [opinion masquerading as fact].The VW New Beetle is a hatch and one of the best small cars in crash results. Your offense at OTHER'S opinions is insulting when you have been mistaken about SUVs being body on frame,that the group has been engaging in America bashing, assuming hatchbacks are still being built with wide open cargo areas as well as flimsy construction,and assuming there would be a tremendous effect on structural integrity of a hatchback over a sedan by cutting away 95% of the top a long slender cardboard box. And your concern over side impact protection [especially when you are driving a QC] of a hatchback is not backed up by any sort of statistical data.And none of them were as rude to you as you have been with your last post. And some of the WORST ideas of the 20th Century came from Europe: [Naziism, collectivism, communism, etc.]so don't go there. No one said anything of the sort about Europe being so superior.Our auto execs and the decisions they make DUMB. People on this thread seem to LIKE this car and want to see it here. Period. They're not going to build a car that cannot meet all US safety standards and many times have to UPGRADE to meet ours.That they have equal or better standards is not America bashing, it may simply be fact. Get a grip. Last edited by Citation84; 02-23-2006 at 12:38 PM..
|
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Picture of Opel Astra Police Car in Belgium | kenzingen | Astra General | 6 | 01-11-2009 03:23 AM |
2009 Saturn Astra Test Drive: Small Car, Big Chops | Charlie | Astra General | 5 | 12-22-2008 03:50 PM |
Opel ASTRA as Google car | tackepj | Astra General | 1 | 07-12-2008 04:19 AM |
Astra Not Catching On Yet Amidst Small Car Wave | robert4380 | Astra General | 58 | 06-04-2008 02:21 PM |
Saturn Astra - Best New Small Car | saturncan | Astra General | 25 | 12-22-2007 10:52 PM |