Starter or RKE Relay Problem?

[discslinger]

I've read at least a dozen or so threads to wrap my head around why I get a no crank perhaps every 30 starts. I have a 98 SL2 DOHC automatic. I had just recently replaced spark plugs, cleaned EGR valve, checked coil towers, and performed some general maintenance PRIOR to this no crank issue. No click, nothing. I suspect the ignition kill and want to perform the RKE reprogram or I suspect the starter relay... here's why and here's the problem in detail.

Note: I had also wire brushed cleaned both grounds from the battery and the terminals and contacts to the starter. This I thought had cleared the no crank as the car then started fine. Checked the voltage at battery with engine off and under load. 12.5 off and went up to 14 or so running.

Anyway, I noticed my horn fuse blew. Chime fuse is fine, chime works, locks work fine.

Next, cleaned the ground contact for horn. Fuse blows without the connected! What. Probed the contacts for the fuse... 12v in both contacts. So there's a short somewhere?

I have the schematic for the RKE posted by fdryer:
"Here's a picture location for RKE. You can find the RKE relay and jumper the two pins, 30 and 87, to allow the starting circuit to work."

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/att...4&d=1283487814

Where is pin 30 and 87? And what are these located on. I have the back seat off and the console off as to expose the RKE receiver. Is this the relay? Also... I don't see a starter relay.... yet. What is the I/P? is this short for instrument panel.

I want to by pass the dang starter relay. I want to fix the horn of also. But I can't program the RKE of course because I can't hear beeps. I don;t care about the security alarm anyway, so if I can't reprogram the RKE... I don;t care... my priority is to eliminate the ignition kill and or eliminate the relay problem first... BEFORE yanking out the starter to see if that's a problem.

Thanks!

[fdryer]

Presuming your car is the '98, the quasi anti-theft/starter interrupt is the relay under the instrument panel on the driver's side, taped up into one of the wiring harnesses. If the relay contacts oxidize the contacts won't electrically allow the START signal pass from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid terminal to initiate the starter. Bypassing the two pins, 30 and 87, on this relay will eliminate the relay altogether. The final test of this starting circuit is under the car by measuring the small purple wire, after disconnecting it from the starter solenoid. You can use a simple 12v bulb or meter to measure this wire for 12v; every time the ignition switch is turned to the START position, 12v should be on this wire. If you read 12V on this wire every time the ignition switch is turned to the START position then the wiring and most likely the relay is OK. Try with the relay bypassed or without the wire jumper. If 12v is read on the small purple wire then the starter is worn out. This 12v is applied to the starter solenoid to initiate the starter motor.

[discslinger]

Is this relay a 'black box' type relay switch? If so, I don't see one like that. I see a white plastic fastener/clip that was taped onto a wire harness. I cut the electrical tape to get a closer look and separate it off where it was taped to the harness. This is a relay?

I don't understand what is meant by pins 30 and 87. Where are numbers to indicate 30 and 87?

So bypass it how? Run a wire from where to where?

Thank you again!

[richpin06]

Check out my bypass for that system http://youtu.be/UfaOOAOXUHE

[discslinger]

Thanks Richpin... I got it out no problem. Now on to the bypass.
Before I pushed the link... I said, "Dude, I love you"... ironically you said, "here's another everybody loves Richpin video."

ROLF!!

Anyway... to those of you confused about where this relay is:

1) Just under the dashpad. Took me 3 mins. TOPS. Two 7mm bolts. Prying it off is a piece of cake.

2) And YES... it is a black box relay just exactly the same type as the fuel pump and HVAC relays under the fuse panel cover on the passenger side.

In fact Richpin uses one of these to perform a 'better bypass'. Watch the vid.

NOTES:

1) I replaced the horn. It now works, fuse doesn't blow. (It was not the ground wire on the old one but bad at the relay) I started car up fine, then...

2) I reprogrammed the RKE. 2 key cycles. Tried to start and FAILED.

came back in and saw Richpin's reply to see vid.

ok...onto the bypass.

Thanks fdryer also!

[discslinger]

...err, before I do this. Question: after jumping the wires, (I'm not modifying another relay like Richpin did) do I want or NOT want to clip the relay back in place?

In other words, do I leave the relay off after jumping the wires?

Thanks!

[discslinger]

I just connected/jumped (as Richpin and others have suggested) the two wires going to terminal 30 to the one going to #87.

Started up fine 3x in a row. (This still doesn't rule out starter in my mind)

I did not reconnect the relay.. but,

do I want to to be able to use RKE for locking/unlocking and popping the trunk, or do I want to leave it off. I'm fine leaving it off for now, since I'll take starting and running over the other 'features'.

Also... good time to clean and vacuum all the crap.

Thanks again!!

[madpogue]

If you're bypassing the relay, leave it out.

[discslinger]

Update:

17 straight starts no problem. Attached a photo of what the bypass looks like.

Run similar gauge wire comparable to and from the larger 2 yellow wires located on upper left to the lower right wire. (pin 30 and 87 respectively on the relay)

Do not reattach relay! THANKS fellas.

One problem I had with that schematic was the 2D rendering - and recognizing this relay is underneath the dash pad. It does no good to remove the driver's side kick panel, this is the wrong area, and I thought it was there as some folks have written. Again.. get to the starter relay by removing dash panel/pad which takes 2 minutes... maybe.

Done with this thread unless I get a no crank. Knock on wood!

[madpogue]

Excuse the Monday Morning QBing, but a simpler (well, less "invasive") solution -- make a little jumper out of similar gauge wire and a male flat blade terminal at each end. Unplug the relay, and simply plug each end of the jumper wire into the 87 and 30 terminals of the connector, in place of the relay. No cutting/splicing necessary.

[discslinger]

I like that idea!

... wish I would've done it. Definitely more elegant and not as time intensive as Richpin's mod on an extra relay which would cost just a bit more than what's necessary for a good and permanent fix. That's what I like about this forum... another way to make something easier.

I was driven to do bypass surgery - no doubt! I heard the voice of the Wicked Witch of the West when I laid my eyes on this relay that caused me a headache to just find it... "Come Here my Pretty"... 'cept I wasn't calling it pretty!

However, I did not cut the cars OEM wires... only stripped the insulation enough to wrap the jumper wire 'tightly', then taped.

[ohiodevon]

After several frustrating days of trying to fix my '99 SC2 (with lots of helpful advice from the threads on this forum), it finally came down to the RKE fix that richpin showed on the first page of this thread. But, before that fix happened, I had replaced the neutral safety switch, the ignition switch, the F-5 issue, and THEN the RKE relay (which I simply bypassed).

[kanchamech]

Hi Richpin,
Thanks a billion for all the great vids.
i have a 96 sc2 that used to have an occasional no crank issue. now it has a permanent no crank issue....haha..anyways. i took off the dash but unlike the 97-99 it does not have a relay like in your vid. there is a bunch of three taped rectangular boxes taped with wires going in them but none of those look like the relay. of the three squares, one has four wires going into it but they are all black wires. is this the starter relay for the 96 sc2 and if it is, is the disabling procedure exactly the same as in your vid.
thanks
rob

[madpogue]

The '96 cars did not have any security feature in the RKE. There is no starter relay, no procedure to disable the security. You need to chase down your no-crank like one would a '91-'95 car. Fuses, ignition switch, clutch or neutral switch (is it an automatic or manual?), wiring, or the starter itself.

[kanchamech]

sorry for the late reply but my 96 sc2 is an automatic. this problem has totally had me going bonkers. so i think i did manage to locate the neutral safety switch. how do i go on about testing it or (bypassing it)? and how do i find out if the ignition switch is working or not. pretty sure the battery, connections and starter are fine cause i tested them.

[fdryer]

I think you should post a new thread.

[el diablo viejo]

I had a first time event on Saturday with my 97 SL 2 ( with RKE ) in a 95 degree parking lot. Turned key many times and got nothing - no clicking sound, then got a clicking sound a couple times but no starter activation. Tried locking/unlocking with the remote a few times but still nothing.
After about 45 minutes some helpful young adults in a jeep came by and offered a jump. After attaching the cables and about 25 more tries, it finally started. So I am stuck with the title question: starter or relay ? It has started normally twice since the incident.
My MacGyver side is thinking about attaching a second wire at the purple wire terminal on the solenoid, and running it up into the passenger compartment. If this happens again, I can then check it to see if I am getting voltage to the solenoid without having to get under the car. If not getting voltage, I would then have confirmation that it is the relay, and could also use it to bypass the relay and jump the solenoid by touching the wire to the battery terminal. Does this sound like a practical/workable troubleshooting procedure ? I think the only risk is if it does end up being the starter, then I am still stranded.

[fdryer]

You are presenting two possible issues; the rke and its relay (starter interrupt) or the starter. The rke module controls the theft deterrent starter relay interrupt as a way to prevent the starter from operating. If the starter is original then the starter may be worn out. Two different issues with similar symptoms. The suggestion to run a separate wire from the starter relay (START) terminal can help to pinpoint where the problem lies. Just be sure the bare end inside the car doesn't touch any ground points; any bare metal. You can wire a small 12v led or bulb to this wire and use it to visually tell you when 12v is reaching the starter as well as hearing the engine turning over.

Running a small gauge wire from the starter solenoid's START terminal where the small gauge purple wire is attached will help with troubleshooting tremendously as it can tell you whether the START signal is reaching the starter solenoid or not but will not tell you if failure of the START signal is from the rke relay or ignition switch. Further troubleshooting is needed if the START signal is intermittently reaching the starter solenoid.

[el diablo viejo]

Thanks fdryer. Yes I thought of the ignition switch possibility after I made the post. Then I thought that even though it may be a reasonably good diagnostic concept/test, with a little more work I should maybe just spend the extra time and dig in and do a permanent relay jumper; end of that potential problem. Haven't done anything yet tho.

[el diablo viejo]

Many thanks to richpin for helping to get me there. Somewhat lacking as compared to his more professional soldered, retooled relay, I made a jumper from copper solid core 14 gauge common house wire. Stripped back the ends about 1/2 inch and hammered the wire flat which ended up being very close to the size of the prongs on the relay. Needed to use two small pliers to bend it into the shape and orientation to fit. Now that the relay is no longer a potential issue, the problem will probably end up being the starter, right ?
Or better yet, somebody will now steal the car !