95 SC2 5sp with 142k on it. Will not start.

[fritcr]

Lots of history here so bear with me. I did a engine swap with the exact same car, year etc. Even same mileage within 2k. Got the donar engine in last night and all hooked back up and it WILL NOT START! I'm pulling my hair out and I don't have much already! Me and my son (12) are working on this together. Both engines rans in their cars but mine had a burnt valve so bad that it missed on #3 cyl. Things I have checked are:
I have fire to each cylinder at the end of the plug wires.
I have fuel pressure at the schreder valve.
I did do a MMO soak on the engine as we were putting it back in because it had not been started for some time. So...the plugs in there are very oily. I just can't think that all 3 plugs would be so fouled out that none of them would fire up and at least run rough. I have been posting on the AF site too am also a member here so I tought I would put it out there and see if anyone has suggestings.
I'm going to try to get some new NGK's on the way home tonight and a stethascope. I was going to see if I can hear the injectors pulsing when we turn it over. Otherwise...I'm stumped!
I had a very frustrated little boy last night after we worked so hard to get it back together and then it would not start.
Rob

[madpogue]

You had MMO in the chambers, with the plugs in place? Yeah, that could soak/disable the plugs. Try a fresh set. Did you remove the plugs and expel the MMO before trying to start the engine?

BTW, this kind of project is an incredible lesson to your son, especially when something like this happens. Even though it's very doable DIY-friendly, it's by NO means a "routine" procedure. Pitfalls, challenges, unexpected turns should not be cause for frustration, but rather fodder for learning, adapting, rising to the challenge, getting to the bottom of a mystery, being resourceful (including coming here), etc. He may seem frustrated now, but the important thing for him is to understand that the paths taken to getting the car running are as important as the goal / destination itself. Much better preparation for handling real-life challenges than the standard-issue rote and chalk-&-talk he's getting in school.

[Canyon]

Pull the fuel rail out just a little bit but leave everything connected to it and put some paper towel under it. Turn the ignition on two clicks so the fuel rail gets pressurized. Check for pressure and check that none of the injectors are leaking. If all is well, have someone crank the engine and see if each of the injectors are spitting out fuel.

Did you check to make sure you have the correct electrical connectors on the appropriate injectors?

If you have fuel, spark, timing and compression it should fire.

[TomM96]

>Did you remove the plugs and expel the MMO before trying to start the engine?
If the answer to this is negative , some 'internal damage' may have been sustained...

(I agree with everything in above madpogue post.)
When i replaced my fuel tank (after draining/cleaning it) it was necessary to repetitively cylcle on the fuel pump and bleed the shrader valve to establish smmoth fuel flow without air ... you should not need that , but given spark , fuel becomes the issue.

[fritcr]

Well it pretty much has to be a fuel problem. I did take the plugs out and spin the engine over several times before instaling them to make sure the mmo was all out. I put a rag over the holes etc. I really "think" it is the injectors but don't know how they work. I will look into it more tonight with a fresh set of plugs. I did cycle the fuel pump several times before trying to start it. If I can't figure anything else out I will try to pull the fuel rail out and see if I can see them spray as you say. Of course I have a full set of them on the other engine that ran too. I'm pretty sure I have all of the wires back on correctly and not crossed up. The injectors looked pretty easy...one of the wires with the 2 injectors has the plug in it going to the MAP?? on the side of the intake behind the P/S pump. I figured that was for those 2 injectors and they were different lengths and the other 2 were also different lengths so I'm pretty sure the plugs are on correctly. One thing I had a little trouble with were some of the wires on the back side of the engine. Mostly had to feel around. I think I got them all back on the correct sensors and plugged in good. Is there a certian one that I should look for if the injectors are not spraying? I had everything else marked except the ones on the back side. I really didn't have a way to mark them up in there. Plus...i didn't what most of that stuff was.
Thanks for everyones help!
Rob

[fritcr]

Got some more info...put the new plugs in. I had to get AC platiums because that was the only ones they had for it. Cranked with nothing. Took the air cleaner snout off at the throttle plate and squirted a bit of Throttle Body Cleaner in it and it hit and ran just a sec then died. Ok...so it is fuel. I got a stethascope and could not hear the injectors clicking at all when turning it over. Pulled plugs and they ok and not wet. I jack the car back up and go over all of my wires and connections. I don't have an ohm meter/voltage meter. My dad swiped it and I never saw it again. (i need to go get one). So, I could not check my injectors etc. Pulled all of the injector wires/clips off and then pushed them back on. Cranked more...nothing...cranked more and it HIT just a bit. So..for long time I cranked and it would hit and die...etc.
NOW the car will run and idle but it is missing on the #1 cyl. I double checked the fire and it is good. Pulled the plug and it is ok and not fouled. I got the stethascope out and started it up...now I can hear clicks on #2 and #4 but NOT #1 or #3??? It is too smooth to be running on only 2 clys I think but who knows. Anyway, dad come by during all of this and says...you know..those goobers up there were sawing boards in that trailer with your engine in it. Do you think they got saw dust in the fuel rail? Well probalby...also, like a dumb @ss I went up and sprayed the engine off at the car wash and didn't cover those tubes. I did put a bag over the intake but not the fuel lines. I guess what I'm saying is...does the injectors pulse if they are clogged with crap? I'm thinking they may be really clogged up? What do you all thing? I have the engine that came out of the car and it is in MY shed covered and clean. I could take the injector rail out of it but I don't know how they come out etc? My haynes manual is no help. Would I have to get new O rings to do this?
Sorry for all of the questions. We are very excited now that we can hear it running. I'm kind of stumped as to why 2 injectors pulse or click but the other 2 do not.
Rob and Dalton

[Canyon]

I had a similar problem on one of my rebuilds. One injector was not firing. I removed the connector and reinstalled it and it started firing.

The fuel rail is easy to remove. Bleed down the fuel pressure and disconnect the fuel lines. Two or three screws hold the rail in. Remove the screws and pull the injectors out with the rail. They are only held in by the o-rings. You can slide the rail out the drivers side without removing anything else except the air hoses to the throttle body. I will say that I have only done this on a non-abs system so it may be different with abs.

There are metal clips that hold the injectors to the fuel rail. DON'T LOOSE THE METAL CLIPS as you will be kicking yourself. You can remove the injectors from the rail and clean the rail. Also look at the injectors to see if they are clean.

Alternatively you can swap an injector with the rail only pulled back a little. You will have to remove the metal clip to remove the injector from the rail. Did I mention to NOT LOOSE THE CLIP?

Depending on the condition of the o-rings you should be able to reuse them. I have reused them on several of my rebuilds without problem. When you put them back in just check to make sure they are not leaking. If one is damaged or cracked borrow one from your other fuel rail.

Get yourself a multimeter from Harbor Freight for $5 and measure the resistance. If you put a high impedance injector (12 ohm) where a low impedance (2 ohm) is required, the high impedance will still fire but will run lean. My guess is that if you put a low impedance injector where a high is required it will probably damage it. I think you should be ok though as I seem to remember that both your engines were 95 vintage. The injectors should measure 2 ohms.

[fritcr]

I worked for probalby and hour trying to get the fuel rail out of the engine in the car. I couldn't figure out any way to get it out with the injectors on it. I finally gave up and took the clips off of the rail and pulled the injectors off then got it all out. I went up and got my other rail off the orginal engine. I pulled it out end where the P/S pump would have been with no problem. The injectors etc look MUCH better on this one. In fact the injectors off the engine in the car now were all gummed/gunked up.
Anyway, I really hate to take the injectors off and put this all back in but I have tried everything to put it in with the injectors attached and it will not go. I even removed the regulator and won't fit in there. I tried sliding it in from the drivers side and it will almost go but gets stuck on the throttle plate area. My next step is to take the p/s pump off but man I hate to do that it is a pain. Thought someone might have a trick to putting them back in. I tried putting it in from the top with the injectors up in the air and they won't clear the valve cover. Then sticking down and it will not turn in there to go in place. Don't know if I should pull the injectors off the rail and then put them in first or remove the p/s pump? I'm tired and quit on it. Any ideas would be great. The Haynes manual only says to remove the rail from the top and I couldn't do that and now can't get it back in that way.
Rob

[Canyon]

I've done this before but I work on so many engines I don't remember if I had the throttle body off or not. I didn't think I did but I may have removed the injectors from the rail. I did a SOHC just a week or so ago and I know I didn't remove the throttle body or the injectors from the rail to get it out. I moved a few wires but it came out quite easily.

Does your vehicle have ABS? If so that may be what is making it harder to get in an out.

I would take the injectors off the rail, slide it in and reinstall the injectors. If you got the old one out that way this one should go back in the same way. Put a little Vaseline on the o-rings and they will install a lot easier. Note the orientation of the electrical connector for the number 4 cylinder. As I remember it was at a different angle than the others that are normally straight up. I also think the electrical connector for cylinder 4 went on flipped compared to the others top make it easier to install. The wires are in the same orientation but the end that clips on is flipped.

If you have to, pull the throttle body. It is a lot easier than the PS pump. Grab a new gasket for the throttle body. They are like $2. I keep spares on the bench.

Sorry if this is more complicated than I made it sound. From the sounds of it though the injectors that came out were in need of cleaning. Hopefully when you get this back together this will run better.

[Cheyne]

The SOHC doesn't require removal of the throttle body or injectors to remove. On the DOHC (at least my 97), you want to remove the bolts from the throttle cable bracket, remove the throttle cable from the throttle lever and place the cable and bracket out of the way.

Remove the #4 injector from the rail before trying to install. Feeding the rail with the regulator side first and the injectors down, slide the rail between the cam cover and intake manifold and rotate when in position to reinstall the #4 injector.

[fritcr]

Thanks so much for both of your help!!!
Cheyne...I think you got the idea. I almost did that last night. I had it in there that far and thought...man if I just took # 4 off then it slide right in. I'll do that when I get a chance and see if I can ge it running. Yeah the old injectors looked terriable and all gummed up...and starting to rust!
Thanks much,
Rob

HEY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!

[skii33]

I think I removed the complete fuel rail with injectors on it from a 95 sl2 by taking the two bolts off the master cyl. and moving it slightly out of the way?
I would spray the injectors and fuel rail down with carb cleaner before installing them. I removed the fuel rail from a 92 sl2 that had been sitting quite a long time. It was running rough and i had replaced the plugs and wires, so i figured it was the injectors. There was a lot of junk in the rail and the injectors, so i cleaned them up with caRB CLEANER AND THAT SEEMED TO DO THE TRICK. HOPE THIS HELPS.

[Canyon]

Originally Posted by fritcr

Yeah the old injectors looked terrible and all gummed up...and starting to rust!

Save those old injectors. You can send them off to WitchHunter and have them made like new. There is also a place in NC that you can purchase rebuilt injectors from and you can use the ones you have for the core charge.

[fritcr]

Hey Ski, the master cyl is not in my way at all...the number 4 injector just will not fit between the head and the intake any which way I turn it or try to shove it in there.
I'll keep the old injectors for sure. I have a complete engine with all the sensors, A/C, P/S and Alt also. Even have Engine mounts etc. I just hope this engine don't have a burnt valve like the other one. I don't have compresson tester. If the injectors don't do it...will have to borrow one again.
Rob

[OldNuc]

It is a tight fit and difficult with the engine in the car and the throttle body and/or throttle bracket installed. You can do this though. If you clean the ports into the manifold all the way through you can install the #4 injector in the manifold and it will go in quite a ways. Now you can feed the rail with the rest of the injectors in there and pull #4 back out and reconnect it. Use silicone grease or Vaseline on the o-rings and be careful. This is not the way you are supposed to do it.

[fritcr]

Thanks so much for sticking with me on this!
I got the injector rail back in the car and started it right up. Sounds great...ran smooth and I let it idle for a while. I got brave and took it for a short drive. It probably ran for maybe 20 min. Then...it died just like that. I messed with it for a while and finally got it to start but had to hold it to the floor and about 1/2 throttle. It spuddered and spewed like crazy then came out it and started running perrrrfet again. So...got ready to try to get it home and it went about 100 feet and quit again. Just like I turned it off. So let sit for about 2 hours and went back and drove it home. Ran perfect again. Now, I'm afraid to drive it. haha
OH...the service engine light came on during one of the "episodes" too. But when I drove it home..it was off. Dad has a scanner but it is for newer cars than this.
Does anyone have ideas on this? It sure sounds like like a fuel problem to me.
Oh one other thing...during one of it's idling fine times...the oil light was flickering really dim. NOT bright or all the way on but just dim and kind of "twinkling". Well after all...it IS Christmas!
Rob and Dalton

[OldNuc]

You should check the fuel pressure. And, I will bet you have about a half gallon of gas in the oil. Change the oil before you trash a bearing. This sounds like the pressure regulator has died. Pull the vacuum line on it and see if it has gas in it. Harbor Freight sells a pressure tester for about 13.00 92699. You need one. A new OBD-2 reader should read your car. You might have to buy the adapter to the old plug but it should do it.

[fdryer]

Keep a perspective on things as this can get complicated. In order for the entire EFI system to operate the key to EFI system operation as a whole is that the crank position sensor (cps) outputs continuous timing signal data as long as the engine rotates, therefore any intermittent failure whether heat related or not can result in missed output signals that immediately kills engine running. Just like what you're describing and to verify this intermittent operation would be to test for sparks right when the engine dies; remove the coil wires, noting the firing order, and have someone crank the engine while you observe for sparking across the coil towers. Any lack of sparking is simply verifying an ignition system problem that's most likely an intermittent cps that needs to be replaced asap. Good spark means its not an ignition system problem but a fuel problem. Its going to be either a fuel or ignition problem. Guess what controls both? The cps. No cps output = no fuel pump operation, no ignition/spark, and no injector pulses. The cps allows the PCM to operate the EFI system. When cps signals feeds the PCM, the PCM operates the EFI system. No cps during engine rotation means no PCM operation that means no EFI system to run the engine.

A fuel pump/pressure check can be tested easily by having a fuel pressure gauge attached all the time to monitor engine failure when the engine dies. Good fuel pressure at the moment of engine dying means either an ignition problem or the cps. Fuel pressure remains when the engine is shut off, either normally or if something causes the engine to shut off. A quick glance at the pressure gauge the moment the engine cuts off will tell you if there's a fuel or fuel pressure issue. An intermittent cps will just kill the PCM - the PCM depends on precision cps timing signals all the time the engine is running otherwise if the electronic heartbeat fails the PCM fails and the engine stops.

[fritcr]

This car is getting way more expensive than I had planned so I'm trying to NOT buy anything else. I'm figuring it should not have a fuel pressure problem because I drove it home 40 miles than all over the place around the house with the old engine in it with no problems other than the burnt valve. So figuring that and the fact that I can hold it to the floor or somewhere in between and it hits and eventually starts...I'm figuring it is not spark. I do however have a spark tester but if it is "trying" to start then that's not the problem. I also used the coils, wires, etc from the old engine that ran good.
So I'm thinking it has to be a sensor on this donar engine or I did something to the wiring when I put it in. The CPS is the one with the black square plug behind the starter right? Also, what would make the oil light come on and flicker dim like that? It only did it that one time. I shut the car off and it didn't do that since. It could also be the pressure regulator. I had taken it off a couple of times trying to get the injector rail back in the car. I can put the one from the other engine on it I guess. However, it is also the one from the running engine that I drove around before taking out.
It seems to only have it dying problem when it gets all warmed up and I'm trying to drive. It will idle for a long time just fine once I get it running. It acts like it is flooded REALLY bad.
Thanks so much for hanging with me on this.
Rob

[OldNuc]

Fuel pressure will cause all of the problems you are experiencing. If it runs its probably not the cps or the other sensors. However. If you have the proper sensors from the old engine then changing the MAP, Knock, TPS, Oil Pressure, and IAC and see what happens. The pressure regulator has to function properly or you can flood out the engine or starve it for fuel. Dieing when warm is a sign of a bad CPS, have you checked for spark when it sops running?

New plugs and wires would be a good idea also.