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Old 12-25-2015, 03:19 AM   #1
cuetip
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1997 SW1
Default Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

Hi all--

I have a '97 SW1 with a SOHC 1.9L engine. Yesterday I replaced all of her fuel injectors with new ones made by Standard Motor Products in an attempt to cure an intermittent hesitation issue that usually occur under load in first gear. The old ones are her originals.

Before replacing her fuel injectors, her idle was smooth and rock solid. Now her idle is all over the place; she shakes violently when parked or stopped at a stop light. It hurts to see her running so poorly. :'(

I double checked all my work. I made sure all the fuel injectors were seated all the way into the intake manifold and fuel rail. I made sure the fuel injector connectors were tight and positioned correctly. I also made sure all the hoses I removed were back on tightly.

Things worth mentioning:

-I inspected the new fuel injectors and they looked fine. One difference I noticed was the new ones have a different spray nozzle. Instead of holes, there is a disc with what looks like a pintle running through the center of it.

-I took special care when removing and installing the fuel rail and injectors, making sure no contaminates got onto any of the surfaces or into the fuel injector bores on the intake manifold.

-The small black plastic tube that runs from the top of the throttle body to the fuel pressure regulator snapped off at the base where it connects into the piece that attaches to the throttle body. So I went to the nearest junk yard to pick up another one, but the damn yard didn't have any Saturns with a SOHC engine. I ended up getting the part from a DOHC engine. It was essentially the same except for the way the plastic tubes were molded. This one's tubes were molded to snake down the front of the intake manifold instead of behind it, like her old one.

I also noticed that the rubber boot for the fuel pressure regulator tube had a slightly larger inner diameter on the end that connects to the fuel pressure regulator, so I pulled it off and used the old one. Everything fit together nicely. The inner and outer diameters of the tubes themselves were the same as the old ones.

-I thought maybe there was some dust or some type of protective chemical coating inside the fuel injectors that needed to be burned off, so I took her for a long drive, both in the city and on the highway. City driving made me want to cry because of the violent shaking and erratic RPMs when she came to a stop. Highway driving on the other hand felt fairly smooth. I drove close to 10 miles on the expressway, going at a constant 60 mph and overtaking other drivers with ease. I also noticed that the strong exhaust smell I used to smell when flooring it at highway speeds was completely gone.

-She struggles to turn over now. She started up just fine the first time after replacing the fuel injectors. Her idle was good too. No shaking either. I let her idle in park for about five minutes. I didn't go for a test drive then. I ended up going back inside for a few hours before driving her again.

-It was very wet out when I took her for a test drive. It was raining pretty hard too. She had been in the garage for almost two days. When I went to take her for a spin, she had a hard time starting and was shaking before we were even out of the garage. It's been raining practically non-stop where I am and I haven't experienced any driveability issues until now. Starting seems to be getting worse each time...


Any ideas? I hate seeing my baby like this

Last edited by cuetip; 12-25-2015 at 03:31 AM..

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Old 12-25-2015, 03:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

What other parts were replaced? One that stands out is the coolant sensor. What's mileage on this engine? What's fuel pressure? Did you try the temporary blocking gasket on the egr valve?

A faulty coolant sensor tend to cause rich running and flooded starts. A worn out fuel pump may cause erratic engine running if pressures are lower or if erratic/fluctuating pressures affect engine running. A faulty egr valve may stick and cause erratic engine running at idle and cleaning may not help so a temporary blocking gasket is made to block one of both ports underneath the egr valve. Coins, soup can sheet metal or several layers of soda can aluminum.

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Old 12-25-2015, 04:12 AM   #3
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
What other parts were replaced? One that stands out is the coolant sensor. What's mileage on this engine? What's fuel pressure? Did you try the temporary blocking gasket on the egr valve?

A faulty coolant sensor tend to cause rich running and flooded starts. A worn out fuel pump may cause erratic engine running if pressures are lower or if erratic/fluctuating pressures affect engine running. A faulty egr valve may stick and cause erratic engine running at idle and cleaning may not help so a temporary blocking gasket is made to block one of both ports underneath the egr valve. Coins, soup can sheet metal or several layers of soda can aluminum.
I replaced every sensor in my car with GM or AC Delco replacements. The old engine was replaced a few years ago. The new engine that was installed had ~29K miles on it. I don't do a lot of long distance driving, so I'd say the engine has about 50K miles on it now. I keep up on all the maintenance and use Amsoil oil. Pretty much every other part is a new GM or AC Delco part, even the spark plug wires. Haven't tested the fuel pressure yet. Will have to rent a pressure gauge for that.

The EGR valve is new. I replaced it a few months ago with a new GM one. Could it really be going bad so soon? When I disconnected the fuel inlet hose, some gas spilled onto the side of it (not the top where the connector is).

Last edited by cuetip; 12-25-2015 at 04:17 AM..

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Old 12-25-2015, 04:32 AM   #4
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

I also forgot to mention that the check engine light has not come on yet...

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Old 12-25-2015, 09:00 AM   #5
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

I would put the old injectors back in and see if the problems go away. Almost sounds like you were sold the wrong injectors, maybe the ones for a DOHC? Did you replace all the fuel injector o rings?

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Old 12-25-2015, 11:14 AM   #6
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

Aftermarket injectors tend to be JUNK. I would suggest returning those and reinstalling the original ones. You can send the originals out for a cleaning and rebuild or replace them with genuine BOSCH injectors. These are the same as your originals and they are clean and tested: http://www.fuelinjector.citymaker.co...99/4699634.htm

FYI The hi Z DOHC injector will function just fine in a SOHC. There is some risk of high load, high RPM fuel starvation with SOHC injectors in a DOHC though.

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Old 12-25-2015, 11:16 AM   #7
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

1+ ^^ "I would put the old injectors back in and see if the problems go away.", if not, then do as OldNuc said and buy new using "http://www.fuelinjector.citymaker.co...99/4699634.htm".

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Old 12-25-2015, 11:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

For the Hi Z (96 and newer) short injector used in the SOHC engine this BOSCH injector is a direct replacement: 0280150710 or 280150710. These can be found used rebuilt and matched at reasonable prices.

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Old 12-25-2015, 09:27 PM   #9
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

Thank you for the advice, OldNuc.

I put the old injectors back in and she runs like a dream now . I thought reman fuel injectors are bad news too. Aren't the fuel injectors you linked me to remans?

Also, the old injectors looked pretty clean, aside from some slight oxidation on the outside metal piece. Didn't see any blockage in any of the sprayer holes or inlet holes.

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Old 12-25-2015, 10:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

What SMP part number are the new ones?

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Old 12-25-2015, 11:07 PM   #11
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

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Originally Posted by billr View Post
what smp part number are the new ones?
fj367

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Old 12-26-2015, 09:45 AM   #12
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

Apparently, there's an issue as two GM parts sites list the L24/sohc engine injector as 21007593 (OEM). The SMP FJ367 is the correct cross referenced injector as it lists the alternative part number to GM's OEM 21007593. For whatever reason, you did the right thing by taking the suggestions of members to put the original ones back in with unexpected results - they worked fine and cured your rough engine problems. Not only are the old injectors fine but despite thoughts of being old (mileage?) they're in perfect working condition (not requiring injector rebuild or cleaning as suggested by some). If anything was needed, maybe new O-rings but with the original injectors working to dramatically reverse the problem created by new injectors with correct part numbers, you're back to where you should be.

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Old 12-26-2015, 10:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuetip View Post
Thank you for the advice, OldNuc.

I put the old injectors back in and she runs like a dream now . I thought reman fuel injectors are bad news too. Aren't the fuel injectors you linked me to remans?

Also, the old injectors looked pretty clean, aside from some slight oxidation on the outside metal piece. Didn't see any blockage in any of the sprayer holes or inlet holes.
The basic injector is just a solenoid coil and a pointy end pintle that opens the outlet when the coil is energized. The 2 primary failure mechanisms are varnish deposits internally and open coil. All other critical parts are replaced on a rebuild and if you care clever you can rebuild your own at home. Externally it is the inlet filter basket and the o-rings.

The rebuilds are as good as new and the aftermarket Asian look-alike injectors are JUNK contrary to the protestations of others, aftermarket is almost never better that OEM design and materials. GM Multitech for Saturn are rare birds but the Bosch interchange is common and Bosch is the original designer of these injectors.

This is a link to rebuild kits and several bottles of Chevron Techron concentrate in your tank will clean out the insides. Avoid alcohol gas if you can as the car is not designed for it and it tends to kill fuel pumps and older fuel pressure regulators that are mounted on the fuel rail. http://www.mrinjectorparts.com/

That outlet on the injector is a replaceable plate as the actual pintle tip is under that plastic cap and plate.

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Old 12-26-2015, 09:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

Thanks for the help guys. I'm going to return the new ones and see if the intermittent hesitation returns with the old ones back in. I took the o-rings off the new ones and put them on the old ones. They were the same size. I also replaced her PCV valve and grommet along with her engine speed sensor (GM part, also last sensor to be replaced) when I did the injectors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Avoid alcohol gas if you can as the car is not designed for it and it tends to kill fuel pumps and older fuel pressure regulators that are mounted on the fuel rail.
Only non-ethanol gas goes into her tank, and I never let the gas gauge needle drop below the gas pump icon .

Also, is Techron the best fuel additive? How about Red Line?

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Old 12-26-2015, 10:26 PM   #15
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

How much ethanol are you worrying about? The '94/'95 Owners Handbooks specify that E10 is fine. I have been using E10 since it was mandated at the beginning of 2004; in all my Saturns and a variety of other engines ranging from model-year '67 to '13. No problems.

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Old 12-26-2015, 11:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

Take an old fuel pump out and note the brittle condition of the 3 support legs and usually the pump outlet coupling is swollen and distorted.

Even Holly, who happens to sell parts specific to alcohol fuels, will tell you that the alcohol will eventually destroy the accelerator pump diaphragm.

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Old 12-27-2015, 04:40 PM   #17
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Default Re: Shaking, Rough Idle After Replacing Fuel Injectors... PLEASE HELP

Seems quite odd;

If ethanol (10% alcohol in fuel) is the culprit and causing some plastics to degenerate, then shouldn't someone tell the alcohol industry that they must not sell Walmart and all pharmacies plastic containers of their products as they will evidently degrade and damage the container and possibly leak?

(Hmmph)

- I have used ethanol in all cars, chainsaws, riding mowers, tillers and string trimmers for who-knows, 20 years and no issues in them.

Bunk on ethanol being an issue.

If it were a problem, then surely the plastics industry would have had great sales to all the above manufactures of gasoline engines by selling them HDPE seals from which all these 91% Isopropyl alcohol bottles lining pharmacy shelves are extruded from.

And what about all these "ethanol additives" which claim to eliminate ethanol related issues.....how pray tell, does it alter the organic bonds to thereby make ethanol no longer have a detrimental affect on plastic? These are snake oil products.

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