SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series General
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-22-2011, 12:42 AM   #1
Troy35
Junior Member
Troy35 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tracy, CA
Posts: 27

1997 SC1
Default high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Hello all,

My car '97 SC1 with 175k miles runs great. Tonite I decided to clean the EGR valve and the throttle body. I removed both and cleaned as described here and on richpin's videos. I replaced both with new gaskets. I started the car and it immediately revved to 3300 RPM, crap! Checked and made sure the butterfly on the throttle body was closed when running and it was.

I pulled everything off and double checked that everything was installed correctly, seemed to be, and started again. It shot right up to 3300 RPM, but then slowly dropped to 1400 RPM and stayed there.

I took it out for a quick drive to see if it was just idling high due to cold weather and after about a mile it threw the SES light. The throttle did not drop below 1400 RPM during drive. It did run just fine, however.

I do not have the ability to check the code(s) until tomorrow but I was wondering if anybody had any idea what was wrong. Also, without the code is there anyway to know if I can safely drive the car to work and back, about 110 miles on the freeway.

Thanks a ton!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Troy35's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Troy35 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Troy35 is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 02-22-2011, 06:51 AM   #2
fetchitfido
Super Member
fetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant futurefetchitfido has a brilliant future
 
fetchitfido's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,422
 

2001 SC2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

My guess would be you're one of the unlucky ones that manage to fubar the Idle Control Valve...uhhhh...thingy.
Maybe the EGR Valve isn't as torqued down as much as it needs to be? That'd be an easier fix.

...
The proper way to fix a S-Series automatic is to replace it with a 5spd O:)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fetchitfido's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fetchitfido reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fetchitfido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 08:40 AM   #3
VUEmaniac
Senior Member
VUEmaniac is a jewel in the roughVUEmaniac is a jewel in the roughVUEmaniac is a jewel in the roughVUEmaniac is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,526
 

1997 SC2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Immediate high idle screams "vacuum leak". Check all your vacuum lines and make sure the EGR and TB are reinstalled correctly.

Best,

...
---
Don't blame a clown for acting like a clown. Ask yourself why YOU keep going to the circus.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to VUEmaniac's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help VUEmaniac reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
VUEmaniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 12:25 PM   #4
Troy35
Junior Member
Troy35 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tracy, CA
Posts: 27

1997 SC1
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

How do I know if I screwed up the idle control valve? Is there a test?

I will check vacuum lines again.

I know that the throttle body and EGR are reinstalled correctly but could someone tell me the torque specs for it. I just really snugged it down good with a ~5" box end wrench.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Troy35's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Troy35 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Troy35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 12:34 PM   #5
billdo
Junior Member
billdo is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ypsilanti, MI
Posts: 18

2002 SL2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Did you remove/reattach the small black vacuum lines located on top of the throttle body? They are attached to a rubber piece with 2 ports on it that mates with the TB. On my '02, it connects on the back of the TB. On your '97, it could be on top.

Bill

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billdo's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billdo reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billdo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 12:36 PM   #6
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Did you replace the O-ring on the IAC valve? If it is together correctly the hand tight is fine. You can not get a torque wrench on most of the bolts anyway. Do not pull too hard as it will distort the throttle body. The IAC will self correct and it does not adjust by hand anyway. If you adjusted it then its dead and if you sprayed carb cleaner up into the IAC it is dead.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 01:46 PM   #7
underthehood
Master Member
underthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the rough
 
underthehood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rockford IL area
Posts: 2,396

1999 SL2
2004 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Did you replace the O-ring on the IAC valve? If it is together correctly the hand tight is fine. You can not get a torque wrench on most of the bolts anyway. Do not pull too hard as it will distort the throttle body. The IAC will self correct and it does not adjust by hand anyway. If you adjusted it then its dead and if you sprayed carb cleaner up into the IAC it is dead.
I spray it all over them all the time. Why say it's "dead". I have never killed one yet. OP it may need to just "reset". Verify you have no mis-assembled parts and no vacum leaks. Once verified if you still have the issue, with engine running create a large vacum leak i.e. remove the vacum hose to the booster. Than plug it with your finger. The engine will nearly die and the pintle will reseat. Everything should than be back at normal. This is a normal procedure on Chryslers and I have found on Saturns as well as some others it can help a condition as you're describing.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to underthehood's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help underthehood reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
underthehood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 02:14 PM   #8
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

There is no reset for the IAC. If you try to force it then it usually breaks. The PCM will reset it all by its self. If you spray carb cleaner into the insides of it the electrical insulation on the steppers is destroyed and it will not position correctly. If you are in California the local carb cleaner will probably not destroy them though.

If you get a P507 code then you have a vacuum leak and the pintle is full closed

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 09:15 PM   #9
Troy35
Junior Member
Troy35 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tracy, CA
Posts: 27

1997 SC1
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Thanks for the responses guys!!

The vacuum lines on mine are on top of the throttle body and they are on well.

I cleaned the IAC just like the richpin video shows and only sprayed carb cleaner on the tip, wiped it with a soft brush and blew it dry with low pressure compressed air. I did not try to manipulate it in any way.

And the O-ring is in there for sure.

So is the reset idea that underthehood described a bad idea? It seems plausable to me but I really have no idea.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Troy35's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Troy35 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Troy35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 09:33 PM   #10
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Do you have a SES light? If so drive to the local parts place and get it read, post the number back here.

Did you by any chance manipulate the throttle stop screw?

The PCM will adjust the RPM to the desired idle RPM unless you have a vacuum leak. Take the air inlet tube off and slowly block the oval port next to the throttle plate with the engine running. Idle should drop to 500 RPM or slowly die. Then remove your finger slowly. The usual cause of this type of problem if not a vacuum leak is carbon on the pintle and/or seat that has not all been removed. You will know immediately what the problem is when you run this test. If the IAC is closed there will be no air flow through the port and if it has a carbon chunk on the seat the RPM will decrease to the 500 RPM range as described. And if it is a vacuum leak the RPM will not change. A 1400 RPM idle should produce a P507 and that also implies that the IAC is closed and you have a leak. Need to get the code read. with a large vacuum leak you can end up with a lean mixture and that is not good for exhaust valves at higher RPM conditions. Depends on where the leak is and why. Is the PCV hose connected to the intake and is it not leaking? They do crack. You can pull the PCV out of the valve cover and put your finger over the end of it while the engine is running or disconnect it from the manifold and block the port into the manifold to see if it is the problem. I would get a can of brake cleaner and spritz around the EGR gasket and throttle body gasket and see if the RPM drops.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2011, 09:42 PM   #11
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

If it was running correctly before you fixed it then what you fixed is probably the problem now. That would be the throttle body and EGR. It does not take much to rev up to 3300 RPM so if there is any errant carbon on the pintle or seat this will happen.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2011, 02:41 AM   #12
Troy35
Junior Member
Troy35 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tracy, CA
Posts: 27

1997 SC1
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Oldnuc,

It does have a SES light on. I don't know if I will have time to get the code read at a parts store before Friday but I will try. I am not driving the car right now as I also have a pickup, fortunately.

I did turn out the throttle stop screw and the RPM's dropped from 1700 RPM to the 1400 it's at now, but that was only about two turns. I looked and realized that I backed the throttle stop all the way off the throttle to where it was no longer in contact even with the high RPM's so I turned it back in to almost where it was before...just the to point where it started to increase the idle.

I will try the test you described. When you say "block the oval port next to the throttle plate" do you mean to block the air from entering the throttle body by blocking the intake?

It has a new PCV but I do not know about the condition of the hose. I'll look.

Thanks.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Troy35's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Troy35 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Troy35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2011, 10:43 AM   #13
underthehood
Master Member
underthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the roughunderthehood is a jewel in the rough
 
underthehood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Rockford IL area
Posts: 2,396

1999 SL2
2004 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy35 View Post
Oldnuc,

It does have a SES light on. I don't know if I will have time to get the code read at a parts store before Friday but I will try. I am not driving the car right now as I also have a pickup, fortunately.

I did turn out the throttle stop screw and the RPM's dropped from 1700 RPM to the 1400 it's at now, but that was only about two turns. I looked and realized that I backed the throttle stop all the way off the throttle to where it was no longer in contact even with the high RPM's so I turned it back in to almost where it was before...just the to point where it started to increase the idle.

I will try the test you described. When you say "block the oval port next to the throttle plate" do you mean to block the air from entering the throttle body by blocking the intake?

It has a new PCV but I do not know about the condition of the hose. I'll look.

Thanks.
I did not know it has an SES on. Than my trick will never help you. But for you and OldNuc I have found that only once I have used it on a Saturn but it DID work. Yeah I am sure the thing would have reset itself but I did not want to wait.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to underthehood's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help underthehood reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
underthehood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2011, 11:56 AM   #14
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

To make it self reset you have to start the car and let it warm up a bit until the RPM starts down towards normal and then shut it off. Give it at least 30 seconds to complete the PCM shutdown, this should only take less than a second, now restart it and the IAC will be back to normal or it is broke.

The requirement to pre-position the pintle went away with the very early pre OBD-1 systems and a few of the early OBD-1 units. Some manufacturers were a bit slower. the only requirement now is to not mechanically bottom the pintle and force it back into the body when installing a new IAC. Takes a scanner to retract one or careful repeated application of power to the proper motor as it is a stepper motor. Can not do it by hand.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2011, 11:59 AM   #15
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

There is an oval port in front of the throttle plate the port is right in front of the plate in the bottom. As you backed out the screw that will have to be properly reset when this is fixed. Try blocking the port and see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy35 View Post
Oldnuc,

It does have a SES light on. I don't know if I will have time to get the code read at a parts store before Friday but I will try. I am not driving the car right now as I also have a pickup, fortunately.

I did turn out the throttle stop screw and the RPM's dropped from 1700 RPM to the 1400 it's at now, but that was only about two turns. I looked and realized that I backed the throttle stop all the way off the throttle to where it was no longer in contact even with the high RPM's so I turned it back in to almost where it was before...just the to point where it started to increase the idle.

I will try the test you described. When you say "block the oval port next to the throttle plate" do you mean to block the air from entering the throttle body by blocking the intake?

It has a new PCV but I do not know about the condition of the hose. I'll look.

Thanks.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 06:32 PM   #16
Troy35
Junior Member
Troy35 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tracy, CA
Posts: 27

1997 SC1
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

So I was able to get to NAPA today and borrow an OBD2 code reader. Unfortunately, it did not work on my car, it would not power on. The guy at the store checked it on his truck and it worked fine. Is there a fuse that I can check to figure out why the OBD2 port isn't getting power?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Troy35's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Troy35 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Troy35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 06:58 PM   #17
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Did you try blocking the IAC port? The OBD-2 port is fed from the BODY fuse which is located in the I/P Panel, fuse panel located inside the car right hand side of the center console all the way down towards the floor. The usual cause of this is the reader was a bit beat-up.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2011, 07:57 PM   #18
adventureoflink
Master Member
adventureoflink has a spectacular aura aboutadventureoflink has a spectacular aura aboutadventureoflink has a spectacular aura about
 
adventureoflink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: 255.255.255.255
Posts: 6,853

1997 SL2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

heads-up: Richpin has a video on testing the OBD-2 connector..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26Nhf4K8ZOo

...
97 SL2
DOB: 3/19/97
Date Obtained: 5/30/07
Status: Alive, 1/2 exhaust

2004 Merc G.Marquis GS
DOB: 2/4/04
Date Obtained: 7/6/12
Status: Alive, no heat

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to adventureoflink's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help adventureoflink reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
adventureoflink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2011, 06:12 PM   #19
Troy35
Junior Member
Troy35 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tracy, CA
Posts: 27

1997 SC1
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

Ok, I finally got the code read. It did blow the "body" fuse....thanks OldNuc!

It threw the P507 and P507 pending codes.


I'll go try the test that you described now.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Troy35's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Troy35 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Troy35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2011, 06:24 PM   #20
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond reputeOldNuc has a reputation beyond repute
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 66,693
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: high idle and SES after throttle body + EGR cleaning

The P507 is basically a vacuum leak code or a shot IAC. Blocking the IAC port will tell you. If it does not suck hard then it is a vacuum leak.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Idle oddity after cleaning throttle body aa4lr S-Series Tech 15 11-30-2009 07:20 PM
high idle after cleaning throttle body shur35 L-Series General 2 04-05-2009 03:15 PM
2001 SL1 high idle after cleaning Throttle Body rickystarshine S-Series Tech 6 11-19-2006 09:33 AM
Suggestions for throttle body/idle air control valve cleaning & emissions tests Heartbeat - '95 SL2 Miscellaneous Tech 1 10-20-2001 10:01 AM
Throttle Body and Idle Air Control Valve Cleaning Heartbeat - '95 SL2 Miscellaneous Tech 6 10-05-2001 02:53 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:20 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.