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Old 09-26-2013, 10:54 PM   #281
DIYguy
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Happy Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Quote:
My car paid for itself this month. I estimated $200/year gas savings over the Ford ZX2 auto trans I was driving (35 mpg vs 28 mpg), and I put the Saturn into service in September 2009 - paid $800 for it.
Congrats. Don't you love these cars?

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Old 09-28-2013, 11:24 AM   #282
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

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Where is the data supporting the lower pressure reading MAP improves MPG? Ehunters readings didn't take into account actual pressure and as such can't be considered conclusive. Combined with very limited actual driving testing, there really isn't much to be considered.
I have incomplete data which so far both confirms and puts into question this theory. That is, I have three MAPS that statically read 29.5inP and the remaining 7 at 29.8inP.

I have tested two of the 29.5s yielding 40.67 and 40.00mpg. However I have two of the 29.8s that also tested 40.67 and 40.37, AND just to keep things in perspective, one of the same 29.8s yields 36.5mpg !

This is the reason I applied little weight to the theory and decided instead to make my MAP selection based on a healthy collection of runtime STFT data at driveway idle.

I currently suspect that static readings of the sensors may behave differently once they are loaded and the loading of one sensor may behave differently than the loading of another. This may be due to the age of the sensors.

So for me, the atmospheric pressure activity plus where I live corrections plus what the MAP reads and all that stuff is just not worth my time. Just cut to the chase and find a MAP or adjustment that will bias you leaner. Of course to do this, you need to measure where you are now, and thus my driveway STFT gathering exercise with a good 5-10mins worth if finely gathered data is the best you will be able to do.

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Old 09-28-2013, 11:32 AM   #283
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

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Even within a very limited range of RPM average for a commuter, the loads, air densities, TPS, actual vacuum, etc can all vary. As such to even begin a valid test of the MAP, it could have to correspond to exact conditions for that vehicle. Even an idle test would require specifics.... throttle position, compression, scavenging, parasitic losses, etc could all change actuals from car to car.
I am not so sure it matters. All specific conditions come out in the STFT data gathering wash for each individuals car.

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Old 09-28-2013, 12:01 PM   #284
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

It doesn't matter as long as you establish the same basic conditions for each test as you did. Your coastal location provides very consistent environmental conditions so that tends to zero out external errors and as long as all testing is conducted on the same car/engine those sensor errors don't impact the final results.

The objective was to find a MAP that reduced the STFT to zero or slightly positive once the engine had reached operating temperature. By design and programming the engine runs to the rich side of 14.7 at idle even when fully warmed up.

To collect meaningful results testing lab accuracy is not required but general driveway repeatability is.

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Old 09-28-2013, 12:14 PM   #285
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

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Originally Posted by DIYguy View Post
[I]I am coming to believe that one data point is not enough to determine why one MAP is better (or worse) than another. Even ehunter said that the measurements he made did not seem to correspond to mileage improvements directly. There seems to be something else going on here behind the scenes.
Yes

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I know your cylinder head issue threw a curve ball of sorts into your testing for MPG, but when you did the final tests that was all done with correct? I'm just wondering if you felt that you had some MAP sensors that were too lean, since the leanest leaning sensors did't create the best MPG. Just picking your brain for the theory you relied on... I saw the numbers as close enough that you possibly "hit the wall" on improvements in MPG return.
I threw all the test data out the window that was connected to the Cyl head issue. Since I understand more today than before I was able pick up after the replacement without the same degree of desperate floundering as before.

The only thing I am not comfortable with is knowing how close to 15.4:1 I am. I would need to find more lean biased MAPS, patience, and a ton of testing time to see where the Mpgs start falling off the leaner and leaner I go. Then I could add to the STSF vs Mpg domain/range graphic I posted earlier to actually see where the MPGs fall off is.

Since I think it is too tough to get more and more MAPs; this is why I am interested in a variable-adjustable resister to try and locate the sweet spot. So I am standing here on the sidelines looking for something that would introduce minimal risk to the long term health of my car.

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Old 09-28-2013, 12:35 PM   #286
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

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I'm tempted to do some testing now, but really don't want to spend the cash on a good OBD-I reader. The OBD-I cars aren't quick to set a code sometimes, so I don't want to be a guinea pig on if A/F ratios get out of line.
Not sure what this Rube Goldberg stuff is all about, but anyway...

You probably know this, but there is no scanner that will give you A/F for a Saturn.

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It doesn't matter as long as you establish the same basic conditions for each test as you did. Your coastal location provides very consistent environmental conditions so that tends to zero out external errors and as long as all testing is conducted on the same car/engine those sensor errors don't impact the final results.
I agree I have good testing luxury living in a climate with moderated and consistent temperatures.

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To collect meaningful results testing lab accuracy is not required but general driveway repeatability is.
Yup. it would drive me totally nutts if I had no repeatability.

Jeeze... I have been here all morning. I have to run out and get a free charge on the Leaf to satisfy my cheap skin-flint ass.

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Old 09-28-2013, 03:15 PM   #287
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

You can not get the A/F ratio away from programmed very far as long as you are in closed loop regardless of what you do to MAP output. What you can do is see if you can get it to be average zero to plus at hot idle and then verify similar results at steady cruise. You can record the trim data and just review it as it only takes about 5 minutes of cruise to get a good data set. The PCM will allow a lean bias at cruise in the 2500-3000 RPM range. First get the idle to have a STFT of zero with + bias then go check the cruise and see where it is at. If you can get a decent test run for 15 minutes at cruise then see where LTFT is as well.

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Old 09-29-2013, 01:28 AM   #288
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

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I have incomplete data which so far both confirms and puts into question this theory. That is, I have three MAPS that statically read 29.5inP and the remaining 7 at 29.8inP.

I have tested two of the 29.5s yielding 40.67 and 40.00mpg. However I have two of the 29.8s that also tested 40.67 and 40.37, AND just to keep things in perspective, one of the same 29.8s yields 36.5mpg !

This is the reason I applied little weight to the theory and decided instead to make my MAP selection based on a healthy collection of runtime STFT data at driveway idle.

I currently suspect that static readings of the sensors may behave differently once they are loaded and the loading of one sensor may behave differently than the loading of another. This may be due to the age of the sensors.

So for me, the atmospheric pressure activity plus where I live corrections plus what the MAP reads and all that stuff is just not worth my time. Just cut to the chase and find a MAP or adjustment that will bias you leaner. Of course to do this, you need to measure where you are now, and thus my driveway STFT gathering exercise with a good 5-10mins worth if finely gathered data is the best you will be able to do.
This was the data that leads me to believe that if anything your data shows that the static (pressure only) testing doesn't do much. Without seeing the effect on trims that measurement alone seems to vary in how it influences MPG. Did your MAPs that produced closest to 0 for STFT at idle stay consistent at close to 0 at cruise RPM, or did that vary as well?

I would think that DIYguys MAP mod would work if you can find that sweet spot in the range. I also suspect that due to the loading/sensor variation that the MAP curve comes into the picture quite a bit, and the STFT data at an "average" load/rpm/condition at cruise might be the most helpful data.


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Originally Posted by ehunter View Post
Not sure what this Rube Goldberg stuff is all about, but anyway...
That wasn't my quote... it comes from what OldNuc stated in another thread concerning sensor mods and the need for a cold start cycle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ehunter View Post
You probably know this, but there is no scanner that will give you A/F for a Saturn.
I was aware of that, but in my case I can't even watch trims without buying a good OBD-I scanner. Similar to yourself I'd prefer to know when I am pushing trim limits or bordering on the lean side. So my choices would be to pay for a scanner I don't really desire, or go to a local dyno and get wideband O2 data from them.



I personally still think the individual characteristics of the MAP curve at various loads has to have great influence. I can't see why the MAP would cost MPG loss for DIYguys testing if that wasn't the case. At worst is would probably show no gain if the IAT mod had already influenced max gains, but if it was pulling MPG then it seems to counter the theory of a set range producing best results. I think there is more going on than a static reading.

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Old 09-29-2013, 11:22 AM   #289
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

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Did your MAPs that produced closest to 0 for STFT at idle stay consistent at close to 0 at cruise RPM, or did that vary as well?
I have not done this but considered driveway tests at 2500rpm. I have no way to reliably pin the idle at 2500 without knowing my manual pinning adds or lightens the gas to maintain the same RPMs. The manual adding or lightening introduces additional biases to the fuel trim delivery that would highly contaminate my data for the fine adjustments I am trying to make.

I have been trying to impress upon people that non-driveway testing with the idea to either eyeball or data collect STFT to validate a consistent average at 0 is a complete waste of time for the reason I just described.

Quote:
I would think that DIYguys MAP mod would work if you can find that sweet spot in the range. I also suspect that due to the loading/sensor variation that the MAP curve comes into the picture quite a bit, and the STFT data at an "average" load/rpm/condition at cruise might be the most helpful data.
This is my point of consternation at the moment. By not being able to easily produce a "complete" STFT vs Mpg curve specific to my Saturn Iam unable to validate the sweet spot. And if we cant even produce a sweet spot curve for driveway idle, a similar curve for 2500rpm is even the more elusive. Adding to this, it is not even clear that my cars curve would behave the same way as everybody elses.

Quote:
So my choices would be to pay for a scanner I don't really desire, or go to a local dyno and get wideband O2 data from them.
Your first test will tell you how rich/lean you are. Then there are the fine adjustments to take you to the sweet spot. How much $ is it to get you an ODB1 that allows you to output data to flat file? Sounds like a lot of money in Dyno testing for the way we are handling things here.

Quote:
I can't see why the MAP would cost MPG loss for DIYguys testing if that wasn't the case. At worst is would probably show no gain if the IAT mod had already influenced max gains, but if it was pulling MPG then it seems to counter the theory of a set range producing best results. I think there is more going on than a static reading.
I agree. However I am not convinced of the approach. Both the IAT and MAP input to the computer imply a two dimensional control to the predicted behavior of the car. Since we dont completely understand at least one of the dimensions I am not so sure he will get to where he wants without a bit of luck.

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Old 09-29-2013, 08:01 PM   #290
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

eunter:
If you pull out that graph I posed at he beginning of this that shows the region of instability at 14.7 A/F ratio this is what is the closed loop control set point is, a discontinuity in the electrical data from the O2 sensor. The actual control points are the continuous rich or lean part of the curve at 0.900 or 0.100 v region. The closed loop correction is an integral function and can never reduce the error away from 14.7 A/F to zero, it just approaches zero error as a limit. Forcing a minor fixed deviation in the lean direction will end up with a measurable lean bias on a WBO2 at a steady cruise. The closed loop control setpoint is modified by ECTS primarily. Rich at temps below ~160F. Right now I am running with a -15% reduction in MAP signal at 850 RPM tapering off to zero at 2300 RPM. The concretion at 1300 RPM is -3%. In have no idea what the fuel trim is but based on gas mileage it is very close to zero. If you can establish a MAP bias tat is in the lean direction then the system will have a control output that also now has a lean bias. That is about all you can get out of the MAP. Installing a warm air intake will further increase mileage and slightly reduce power but as sea level you will never notice. The warm air intake can produce 20 to 25% increase in MPG based on the results of several high milers.

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Old 09-30-2013, 01:24 AM   #291
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Dazed Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

FWIW, on the first complete fill cycle after removal of the MAP mod, it went right back up to 41+ mpg. Had dropped down to mid-high 38's with it installed for three consecutive fills.

Not trying to say this is 100% conclusive as one fill means virtually nothing, but there is an improvement. I have made no changes to driving routes or habits.

I'll post again after a couple more fills, but it looks like the MAP mod at least as I did it anyway does not play well with an IAT mod. It is apparently one or the other, again at least as I am doing them.

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Old 09-30-2013, 08:48 AM   #292
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

No, they will not play well together as the entire OBD-2 system was programmed to prevent exactly what you are attempting to do in either in the rich or lean direction. Remember the entire reason for all of this high tech electronics was increased fuel mileage for CAFE Standard compliance and CLEAN Air compliance not the consumer.

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Old 09-30-2013, 10:53 PM   #293
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Dazed Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Perhaps, but so long as at least one of them works, it serves the purpose for this experiment and thread.

That said, I doubt that there is much more mileage to be gained without extraordinary methods. I am quite happy with 40-42 mpg in my daily commute. I suspect it will top 43-45 in an actual road trip. That's next on the list......

I got nearly that much on a cross-country trip a few years ago so I have every expectation of repeating it.

BTW, it is suspected that some modern cars are able to sense that a government mileage test is in progress (or a smog test) and adjust for maximum mileage (or cleaner operation). Consumer be damned. Your mileage may vary. Because it was designed that way.

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Old 09-30-2013, 11:19 PM   #294
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Now that a minimum of 10% ethanol is being added to all gasoline I suspect mileage will be taking a hit for the last states to be blessed with this crap.

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Old 10-01-2013, 12:47 AM   #295
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Happy Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

That's true, we have had that garbage here for years. Out cars took mileage hits immediately when it replaced MTBE here.

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Old 10-01-2013, 01:32 AM   #296
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

They have finally gotten to the last 6 states in the last month.

So, you have about 3 million federal workers excluding military and post office and only 800,000 are nonessential? There is something radically wrong with those numbers.

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Old 10-01-2013, 11:36 AM   #297
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

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Perhaps, but so long as at least one of them works, it serves the purpose for this experiment and thread.

That said, I doubt that there is much more mileage to be gained without extraordinary methods. I am quite happy with 40-42 mpg in my daily commute. I suspect it will top 43-45 in an actual road trip. That's next on the list......

I got nearly that much on a cross-country trip a few years ago so I have every expectation of repeating it.

BTW, it is suspected that some modern cars are able to sense that a government mileage test is in progress (or a smog test) and adjust for maximum mileage (or cleaner operation). Consumer be damned. Your mileage may vary. Because it was designed that way.
I'm getting similar MPG return to you with the SOHC car and no mods. That's with average trips less than 25 miles. I think with the IAT mod I could see mid 40's, and on a trip I'd venture to say I could see near 50 even without mods if I could keep speeds down.

Around here hitting the express lanes dictates 70-75 often, and going 65 is often taking your life in your hands. I can't imagine MPG if I had the patience (and location) to actually drive at 55-60 for an hour or so at a time.

E10 has been around here for quite a while, but I still mange a good average. I felt disappointed when I tried an alternate gas tied with a lot of short trips and got "only" a 38+ MPG tank. Those surrounding it topped 43 MPG.

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Old 10-01-2013, 12:28 PM   #298
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Happy Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

I must say that the majority of my highway commute is at 70-75 mph, the prevailing traffic speed. I am absolutely not hyper-miling.

If you drive 65 in the typical morning traffic around here you may get flipped off, flashed at and/or honked at. People will tailgate and whip around you for sure. You become a rolling road block.

On side roads at a steady 45-55 mph my UltraGauge indicates way better mileage than on the highway. This is of course hardly surprising.

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Old 10-01-2013, 01:23 PM   #299
fdryer
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Aww pish posh!? I have been playing with my new tablet with OBDLink this year. Once I became familiar with the screen displays and customized it for observing various functions (another distracted driver without using a cell phone) I noticed a very peculiar display - instantaneous mpg's! When coasting from any speed as I usually do prior to anticipating braking from traffic flow, I'm ecstatic to see my mpg's WOW me with 99.99 mpg's (or maybe 3 digit mpg's, I forget)!? I beat everyone with mpg's no matter what speed I'm at since once I release the go-pedal my display shows instantaneous mpg's! Even better - coasting downhill at just the right speed while not slowing down. I can get 99 mpg or more for a very brief length of road. No long hills here in NYC but I wonder what my numbers would be when coasting down those long mountain passes..............of course I'll probably be using all the fuel to get up the mountain. I never win.

Back to reality. My bestest mileage for my little 3.0L V6 with cruise control pushing 73 mph on the Jersey Turnpike was always hovering just shy of 24 mpg's from tank to tank when commuting. I shudder to think what I could achieve if I slowed down to 45-55 mph. Maybe 28 or even 30 mpg's? With three car lanes north (separate two lanes for trucks), narrowing down five lanes to two south (NJ are cheap taxpayers) I wonder if I'll get run over........trucks may not notice my car as a road bump when I get squashed.

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Old 10-01-2013, 05:17 PM   #300
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1997 SC2
Dizzy Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Haw...... 99mpg, that's nothing.

I have topped 300 mpg (indicated) on the UltraGauge with the clutch pushed in on a down hill run at 75 mph.
Of course that only lasts a second or two.

However I "do" 200+ all the time coasting in traffic.

When I was on the down hill side of the Grapevine it lasted for several minutes .

But the climb up the grapevine was quite miserably in the low 20's .

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DIYguy

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