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Old 09-25-2013, 08:15 PM   #261
laser3kw
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

actually swapping in and out several MAP sensors to to find the one with the best quirk (to it's responce curve) that matches the rest of the sensor quirks and your driving style. It's part of empirical testing. test a, test b is a better than b?
I don't have lab grade equipment but I can net results to satisfy my curiosity.

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Old 09-25-2013, 09:10 PM   #262
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

There is a fairly large body of evidence that selection of the MAP KOEO signal value vs local atmospheric pressure does impact mixture in the hot operating range(>160F). It has also been demonstrated that below the hot operating range the effect of MAP signal modification is minimized.

I have seen no evidence that any minor variation in what is being called the response curve as built has any significant effect.

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Old 09-25-2013, 11:06 PM   #263
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

If there is a large body of evidence, it must be hidden from internet searches, as Google isn't doing anything to find it. But I did find these tidbits in one of the searches....

"Same type of chart is in the photo gallery. Thee is NO chart that shows the key on engine off voltage readings for any given local uncorrected barometric pressure from 31" to 26" for example. And this is what you are dealing with when reading the voltage on a non running engine."

"It may not be linear. You have to actually read the volt vs pressure table in the PCM to get he actual value. Site uncorrected barometric pressure can be above 29.92"Hg and it does read it."


I don't know where anyone is reading data directly from the PCM to get the values, but it seems to me that the MAP mod has opinions that vary all over the place. The recent tests by Ehunter don't show a solid trend at all.

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Old 09-25-2013, 11:09 PM   #264
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Your search foo is poor.

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Old 09-25-2013, 11:10 PM   #265
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYguy View Post
The problem with the charts is that you can drive a truck through them. It is fairly obvious that they are limit charts, not design charts.
Agreed. Without the FSM or some other more reliable form of data giving specifics, chasing center ground isn't any sure thing IMO. Remember the FSM also states temps to closed loop proven wrong in both OBD-I and OBD-II cars.

I stated in a previous MAP thread that the voltage allowances are just too large to give any solid indication that specific voltages are needed. The variances allowed account for thousands of feet of altitude.

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Old 09-25-2013, 11:16 PM   #266
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhonky View Post
Long post. just posting observations and what i did.

first of all, changed out those pilot nitrode plugs. had a changes i've noticed lately(not sure if because of the plugs, but thats what i'm blaming it on), so i was glad to put in the side gapped autolites

I plugged in the variable resistor. engine off key to on, it said intake temp was 228. with the 150ohm resistor its 224.6. so i turned it a bit expecting to see the temp change a bit, but it didn't. just stayed at 228. tried starting the car. no dice. threw a code p0112. plugged back in my resistor, and it turned on. turned it off, put key back to on. plugged in the variable resistor into the ects connector, came up 224.6 when it was reading as 228 in iat connector. i again turned the little screw piece and finally saw the coolant temp change as i turned it. turned on my car, and fan immediately came on(although i thought it wouldn't because i read on here that the fan comes on at 226). turned the dial until it said the coolant temp was 204 which is as low as it would go. fan turned off around 213 i think.

so at this point i have a car that thinks its 224.6 degrees outside and that my engine coolant temp is 204.x

I drove it for about 8 total miles just to see if it'd throw a code and to check ltft etc

did not throw a code. idk if its a product of the plugs, but it seemed zippier off the line i thought. ltft was around 10 or so driving, at stop lights it'd go to -1ish. at idle the stft would go between -1 and 1.

i guess i just wonder if i can keep it going like this for a few weeks to test or am i causing serious damage
For me I would have a concern over the actual operating temp of the car. Not only for cooling purposes, but to help determine if any stumbling or strangeness happens within a certain actual coolant temp during warm up periods.

It may well help, and some cars can fool the coolant sensors, but if you get stuck in traffic you'll be wondering what the actual temp is... at least I would. I guess if in doubt you could cycle the fan via the AC to be safe, but personally I would spend half the drive wondering what was going on with temps, even though it's not a problem in our car.

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Old 09-25-2013, 11:19 PM   #267
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Your search foo is poor.
Then certainly you can find the data you are stating creates a large body of evidence.


Is it safe to assume you have no comment concerning the lack of tables for the pressure charts vs voltage readings at KOEO?

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Old 09-25-2013, 11:31 PM   #268
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

If you want to look at the info on selecting MAPs or modifying MAP output dynamically then go find it. There is no point in trying to explain it to you as you have made up your mind and refuse to accept the information available. I am not going to waste any more time on this subject with you. So give it up.

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Old 09-25-2013, 11:54 PM   #269
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

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Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
If you want to look at the info on selecting MAPs or modifying MAP output dynamically then go find it. There is no point in trying to explain it to you as you have made up your mind and refuse to accept the information available. I am not going to waste any more time on this subject with you. So give it up.
The only thing I've made my mind up on is the fact that supporting data will hold more weight than statements without supporting data. You seem intent on stating that the MAP mod is the "correct" way to change things, yet have no links to supporting data, nor could I find any.

You've stated in recent posts that playing with sensors such as being done here would be the "Rube Goldberg" mod and implied it would lead to nothing but problems, and the lack of the cold start procedure would cause MPG loss. I'm just curious why you continue to reject actual data, yet hold on to statements without data.

If there is a magic MAP value for each pressure, I'm certainly not finding it, and the FSM gives a very wide range.


It's impossible to reject available information if it in fact is not available. That's why I've asked. Similar to DIYguys IAT mod, anything showing promise could easily be duplicated by others to confirm how the mod works on various cars and in various conditions.


Still no comment on the voltage vs pressure?

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Old 09-26-2013, 12:44 AM   #270
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

There is no table of output voltage vs. local barometric pressure, there is however a rather broad chart of output voltage vs altitude in 1000 ft blocks or meters with associate pressure based on STP. What is your problem? English or comprehension or just argumentative?

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Old 09-26-2013, 09:35 AM   #271
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYguy View Post
Time will tell, but it appeared to me that these two mods did not play well together.
You could verify what should happen empirically with each and every change you apply. This would save you a lot of time and money.

Your actually trying to adjust MAP for 15.4:1 on the road, and trying to incorporate an IAT mod to cover yourself at idling at stoplights. I think you are going to have to get very creative to get the best of both worlds.

Last edited by ehunter; 09-26-2013 at 09:41 AM..

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Old 09-26-2013, 10:42 AM   #272
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

That is about the size of it. If you monitor exhaust A/F ratio you will see a shift to a high of 15.4 or so and a low of 14.4 or so a it switches. Unless you are dynamically modifying MAP signal that is about the practical limits of tweak before you set codes at lower throttle openings and RPM. The IAT will effect mixture A/F ratio across all throttle, ECTS, RPM conditions more or less equally and this is the risk and benefit.

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Old 09-26-2013, 10:48 AM   #273
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
There is no table of output voltage vs. local barometric pressure, there is however a rather broad chart of output voltage vs altitude in 1000 ft blocks or meters with associate pressure based on STP. What is your problem? English or comprehension or just argumentative?
I'm simply looking for data. If you aren't already aware, I won't stoop to the grade school level insults, but please continue to do so if you wish. It won't bother me at all.

I was trying to nail down a timeframe to search, since in the past you have stated there is no way to test the MAP for accuracy, but for function only. I figured that the data that changed your mind must be more recent than that.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no argument to be had, simply data to look at and make decisions based on such data. If you wish to see everything other than your word as argument, that's on you. Dialogue, discussion, and debate often present opposing views and in the end people can make their own decisions.

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Old 09-26-2013, 10:51 AM   #274
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

One thing of concern here is something jhonky has inferred in his post and a PM. And admittedly I may be mis-interpreting what was posted, if that is so please pardon me.

I just want to clarify the following point-

The IAT modification being presented and discussed here was not intended for, not written or posted as, nor should be used for, the ECTS. Don't touch the ECTS connection, please!!

To put a fixed resistor in place of the ECTS is courting disaster. Among other things it would defeat your radiator fan controls. It is therefore tampering with a basic safety circuit for the engine. Don't do it!

Also, I believe that he may have paralleled the variable resistor I sent across the IAT while still connected. That's OK, but it was not intended or pre-adjusted for that purpose as sent. That could explain the code that was thrown.

To run in parallel with the IAT, the resistor will need to be adjusted much higher than the 125-135 ohm range I am running in, maybe around 160-180 ohms. On a very hot day the combined (paralleled) resistance of the mod and the actual IAT should never be less than around 120 ohms.

-----------------------------------------------

I am evaluating things empirically.
I am guided by the numbers and results, not "seat of the pants" feel or opinions.
Some things have not worked out as planned for sure.

That said, the "feel" of the car does come into play.
You can't have a car that gets great gas mileage but is unreliable, hesitates, backfires, is hard to start, takes 40 seconds to get up to highway speed, overheats and self-destructs.
Then it would become a Yugo.....

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Old 09-26-2013, 11:02 AM   #275
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehunter View Post
You could verify what should happen empirically with each and every change you apply. This would save you a lot of time and money.

Your actually trying to adjust MAP for 15.4:1 on the road, and trying to incorporate an IAT mod to cover yourself at idling at stoplights. I think you are going to have to get very creative to get the best of both worlds.
Making two mods play well together would likely result in a compromise, similar to any factory programming being a compromise of sorts.

It would seem to me any MAP mod would affect the majority of load and RPM ranges in the same way as the IAT mod, so short of long term testing of A/F ratios both are simply working within the confines of it setting or not setting a code.

I would think that any mod with the potential to change mixture would also be subject to the variables created by the other sensors and their function. Reaching a point of altering timing, etc could easily take a great idea and cause it to not work.


I know your cylinder head issue threw a curve ball of sorts into your testing for MPG, but when you did the final tests that was all done with correct? I'm just wondering if you felt that you had some MAP sensors that were too lean, since the leanest leaning sensors did't create the best MPG. Just picking your brain for the theory you relied on... I saw the numbers as close enough that you possibly "hit the wall" on improvements in MPG return.

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Old 09-26-2013, 11:55 AM   #276
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

DIYguy,

I was curious about the ECTS use as well, and personally I'd be OK with it myself if I had temp and fan control at all times. Without that I'd stay away, but I've seen where people have done it on other vehicles with both easy to find and not easy to find results.


I also had a thought for those looking into these tweaks that should easily allow for some blind testing. With MAPs a person could easily just give several a label and test without knowing the actual pressures or voltages reported. The system should toss a code if any is non functional, otherwise any of us having not tested the MAP could be driving ticking time bombs. If desired a person could test various sensors to make sure they have a wide range, then mix them up and label them.

That way, results could be determined before looking at sensor readings, thus tossing out any of the "drive to confirm your theory" testing. Depending on commute I may do some testing myself, though I can't see MPG getting much better than it is now unless the commute changes.


Great info and data thus far DIYguy.... maybe we should chart potential fuel and money savings through the forum as a whole.

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Old 09-26-2013, 01:08 PM   #277
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

I'm testing the MAP with the lower reading right now (driving around, waiting for an OBDII bluetooth dongle to arrive in the mail)

For those who have not seen them, the bendorfold threads are instructive

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=167597

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=169135

I did a quicky Excel sheet to calculate payback periods for mods. Put in the miles you travel, your current mpg, mpg after mod below, and price of gas.

The numbers in there are what it is costing me to not do the 5th gear swap
Attached Files
File Type: zip payback period for mods.zip (7.1 KB, 7 views)

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Old 09-26-2013, 02:43 PM   #278
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Happy Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Quote:
I was curious about the ECTS use as well, and personally I'd be OK with it myself if I had temp and fan control at all times.
On my SC2 I have the independent soft start radiator fan controller I designed and built years ago (and posted about). It still works perfectly. The PCM never gets a chance to turn the fan on and the engine temperature stays very stable under all conditions.

Even with that known and reliably working add-on controller, I would be very, very hesitant to put a fixed resistor in place of the ECTS. This is because I would lose my temperature gauge as well. So I personally won't do it. Someone else can risk frying their engine.

I like the "blind MAP test" idea very much, but that presumes that one has an assortment of them and a steady enough commute to get valid comparisons. I am absolutely not saying no, but there would have to be "standardized" conditions adhered to carefully for the results to mean anything.

The bendorfold links look interesting, I'll have to dig into them later tonight. Thanks. As for payback, let's see....

The cost of the IAT mod for me was basically free, but let's say $5. With an improvement of 3 mpg conservatively, that is +8%, or a savings of around 0.78 gallons per fill. At $4 a gallon local prices, that translates to a payback period of around 1.6 fills. So my mod had paid for itself in excess of 10x so far.

The 5th gear mod with its higher initial cost has "only" paid for itself between 4x and 6x so far.

Driving my SC2 as opposed to my old K1500 (same commute), the SC2 has paid for itself about 3x and counting over the years I have owned it. Looking at it that way, I have been driving it "for free" for quite some time.

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Old 09-26-2013, 02:50 PM   #279
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Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
I'm testing the MAP with the lower reading right now (driving around, waiting for an OBDII bluetooth dongle to arrive in the mail)

For those who have not seen them, the bendorfold threads are instructive

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=167597

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=169135

I did a quicky Excel sheet to calculate payback periods for mods. Put in the miles you travel, your current mpg, mpg after mod below, and price of gas.

The numbers in there are what it is costing me to not do the 5th gear swap
I've seen that one link recently, that was where the "Rube Goldberg" term was introduced.....

Did you test the current MAP with a plug in scan tool? Just curious since you seem to be waiting for the bluetooth for I'm assuming the live data feed on the fly.

I'm tempted to do some testing now, but really don't want to spend the cash on a good OBD-I reader. The OBD-I cars aren't quick to set a code sometimes, so I don't want to be a guinea pig on if A/F ratios get out of line. There are local dyno facilities but the payback time with already good MPG and driving very little doesn't make sense either really.

But anything that improves MPG is nice.

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Old 09-26-2013, 05:11 PM   #280
alordofchaos
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central MI
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2002 SC2
1998 SL2
Default Re: Side gapped plugs, 5th gear swap and IAT mods

Quote:
Originally Posted by Signmaster View Post
Did you test the current MAP with a plug in scan tool? Just curious since you seem to be waiting for the bluetooth for I'm assuming the live data feed on the fly.
Yes, using a regular OBDII hand-held reader. It reads live data but no data-logging.

That means when I'm driving, I've got a cable draped over the steering wheel shroud, holding the scanner in one hand and wheel in the other, and glancing at the readout after hearing a beep (when it updates live data) - almost as bad as reading texts while driving I'd much rather get home and see what the data was later
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYguy
the SC2 has paid for itself about 3x and counting over the years I have owned it. Looking at it that way, I have been driving it "for free" for quite some time.
My car paid for itself this month. I estimated $200/year gas savings over the Ford ZX2 auto trans I was driving (35 mpg vs 28 mpg), and I put the Saturn into service in September 2009 - paid $800 for it.

...
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11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 151k DD
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12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles

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