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Old 08-06-2008, 11:06 PM   #1
gutter
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2001 SC2
Default 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

My gf has a 2002 SC2 that quit one day. The first day it quit, her gas gauge quit working. So I figured it was the ground for the pump and sending unit. A friend wiggled the wire/harness in the trunk, then the gas gauge was back and the car started.

2 days later....car quits at the store. I go to pick her up and check out the car. I try the wire in the trunk again and no luck this time. Oh and her gauge didn't quit this time. So I start digging around in the relay panels. I put a jumper across the contacts for the fuel pump relay. Works!! I get the car home to take a closer look at it. Oh and I did swap the relay out. Didn't change. So I was going to see if I'm even getting a signal from the PCM to the pump. The problem is my Haynes manual has the electrical for the PCM up to 1995. So the color looked incorrect from what I could see on the back of the relay panel. If someone could post a pic of that diagram with pump relay and PCM for an 02, that would be awesome.

Also when I checked the voltage at the coil terminals of the relay, I was getting an odd voltage like 4-5 volts. And this was even with the key NOT on. The voltage did not change even when the key turned to on. Like the wire is rubbing against a 12V somewhere. Or something is loading it down.

The other thing I've been reading but know nothing about is the passlock. Her ignition has been getting crappy for about 2-3 weeks. It doesn't want to turn unless you jiggle with it. I read that will cut-off the fuel pump if the passlock isn't working correctly. I might be wrong. I just thought the weird voltage reading was odd and wanted to check the wiring.

There, I hope I didn't leave anything out. Thanks for any help!!!
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODs5GMRI2Q0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfHcU_JQzVs

That should be what you need to diagnosis your fuel pump.
Videos by Richpin ofcourse

The ignition lock cylinder being hard to turn should not effect the security system if its disabled by the remote. I would suggest getting a new key cut at the Dealer, and see if that helps.
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:27 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

OK, I watched both videos. I have it narrowed PAST the troubleshooting in them. I have voltage at all "fuel pump power" points. The pump runs fine if I jump the relay contacts.

It's the RELAY itself that will not energize. And from what I've read, THAT signal comes from the PCM. But my schematic is for the wrong year so I'm not sure of the correct wire to check. I'm trying to trouble shoot the wire that tells the relay to energize. I think it may be pinched or broken.

If it's as simple as I'm just not getting a signal from the PCM right at the harness to turn on the fuel pump, then it's beyond me. I'm an electrical/instrumentation tech where I work, so I can get this far with the correct schematics. But I do not know the workings of what the car needs for inputs in order to "tell" the relay to energize. And all this is with no codes from a simple code checker.

BTW, those were VERY instructional videos. My hats off to who made them, very nice!!
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:09 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

Well, you need to know some facts about the requirements to operate the fuel pump since you have an understanding of the electrical system and can read a schematic.

1-The fuel pump relay will run 2-3 seconds and shut off (ground signal from the PCM) when the ignition key is turned to the ON/RUN position as a matter of safety. You can hear the faint hum/hiss of the fuel pump running in a quiet area. If you can hear the cycling of the pump then all's well. 12v is sitting on one side of the relay and waiting for the ground (enable) signal from the PCM to energize the relay. 12v is also on another relay contact to be sent to the fuel pump via contacts 30 and 87 to run the pump.

2-As the engine rotates, as in starting or running, the fuel pump is turned on again by the PCM via timing signals from the crank position sensor (CPS). The PCM will not enable the fuel pump relay, ignition/spark or injector pulses unless it has cps signal data. As long as the engine rotates then the cps will output timing signals allowing the PCM to command the fuel pump relay to run the fuel pump, initiate the ignition system for spark, and pulse the injectors. You won't see or hear the fuel pump running after the 2-3 seconds when the ignition key is left in the ON/RUN position.

3-If the car has the Passlock anti-theft system, part of the system is in the ignition switch assembly using several Hall effect switches. If Passlock is enabled (there should be a flashing security icon) the fuel pump circuit is disabled preventing any chance of a start. You can crank the starter all day and burn out the battery or starter but the fuel pump won't run at all. A key to the anti-theft system. Passlock also disables the injectors, at least on the L300's so this may be applicable to yours too. Only when the security icon is off is the EFI system enabled. Be aware of this as and observe the tach or speedometer for the security icon. It should be off when starting the car. If its flashing while starting, the engine won't run, period, as described above.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

OK. Thanks for clarifying how the PCM works. I wasn't sure how it signaled the relay. I work with 120 and 24 v circuits and all the neutrals or (-) negatives are usually one buss. Everything is positive logic.

Now I know that it GROUNDS the relay, I can retest the voltage at those pins and know what to expect. It's still the weird voltage of 5 volts that get me. When I checked it last night, I checked on one of the "coil" pins for the pump relay. (And I wish I could remember which pin, because it probably makes a difference now that i know one pin is +12 and the other is (-) signal from PCM).

When I went from this pin to any 12V+ I got 7V. Then I went from this pin to a ground and got 5V.

Now what I have to recheck tonight is if the pin I'm talking about that gave me the weird reading is the 12V+ to the relay COIL. If it is, it's almost like it's rubbing against ground some where and dropping 5 of the 12 volts to ground.

AND....i get this reading with the key off. Do you know if the +12V to the pump relay coil is always on? or only when the key is turned..... If it's only suppose to be there when the key is turned on, and that +12V come from the ignition switch, then that switch might be causing an issue. I'm not sure

And about the passlock, the security light goes out after 1-2 seconds. So I don't think there's an issue there.

But....that's why I came to the experts!!! Sorry if I'm being too wordy. I'm trying to be descriptive as possible without rambling.
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Old 08-07-2008, 11:49 AM   #6
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

The differential voltage may be 5v logic level pulled up; 12 minus 5 = 7v. When the ground (5v) goes to a logic low the 12v conducts through the coil to energize the relay. I forgot one of the relay pins but one is 85, the other ?. Power to the fuel pump is from 30 and 87; one of them is (I think) HOT all the time. The other two pins would have 12v on one of them; the 12v is probably the switched 12v from the ignition switch.

You may be the only one to understand 5v logic levels so 5v measured on the ground wire (as measured to frame ground) would prevent 12v from energizing the relay. The relay needs 12v but 7v isn't enough power to make the relay work. When the 5v (ground wire) goes to a logic low (5v pulled to ground by the PCM) 12 volts instead of 7 volts conducts through the coil to energize it. The contacts of pins 30 and 87 come together and the HOT 12v is sent to power the fuel pump.
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Old 08-07-2008, 12:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

Ahhhhh...got ya. I was under the impression that the PCM was 12V and not 5V logic. So, any relay that the PCM needs to pull "low", will have 5 volts at the (-) side of the coil if referenced to "ground". Or 7 volts when referenced to +12V. Then when the PCM goes low, you have 0V on negative side to ground and the full 12V on the +12 to ground (obviously). Now I get it.

So if I'm not getting the 5 volts to go away when I turn the key, my PCM is either not pulling low, or I have a break in the wire from PCM to the back of my relay panel. And this is why I need a CORRECT schematic for the wire color at the PCM. My schematic is for the wrong year. I mean...I can see a light blue wire to the back of my panel for the relay. (The other is the large red for +12V). On the small connector on the PCM, there is 1 light blue. If that's the one, then I'll just do a continuity check with a jumper wire and my meter. But I haven't even checked the large connector on the PCM. There might be more light blue wires on that. I'm just not sure which wire to check.

Oh and in the post, I also got the year of the car wrong. It is a 2001... NOT 2002.

And thanks for the replies. This forum defintaely has some experts running it.
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:55 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

OK I think I've got it. All votages checked out good from the wire that I would stick in the relay socket. It did just what you had explained, now that I know how it works. So everytime I would turn on the key, I get my 12 volts, and after 2 seconds, back down to the 7, as you explained. Now when I turn over the motor, it droops to about 10.5, which I figure is normal when starting a vehicle.

So I put the relay back in. And it starts. Runs for a bit. I turn it off. Try again. Starts. Do the same thing. This time it doesn't start. So I feel for the relay to click when I turn the key. It seems to be clicking. So I figure I try what I already tried and swap it with the HVAC relay. Maybe the contacts in the relay. It starts. So I figured I went through all this trouble and it was the relay but it was intermittent.

Then I wiggle the relay, the car shuts off. Then I start to feel how the relay goes in the socket as compared to the others. I maybe goes in 1/16" of tension from the socket. I check a different one, it's more like 3/16-1/4" of tension. I barely have to wiggle on the fuel relay and it comes out of the socket. It's GOT to be the female spade terminals in the relay socket. I don't know if they got shoved back into the fuse panel too far where they make intermittent connections???!!!!

But if anybody has ever had a fuse panel apart, I would be interested in hearing how. It looks impossible. Any suggestions?? Thanks!!
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:32 PM   #9
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

You can tighten the loose connection, its not hard. You also can make yourself a big handful of problems doing this if you get distracted.

How to fix the contact. When you get into the UHJB there is a removable contact for each fuse and relay. One side has a pair of more or less rectangular indentations and the other side is rectangular and dished in. You tighten them by pressing in on the dished side while they are lying flat on a hard smooth surface.

To get at the offending contacts you do the following. Remove negative battery connection. Remove all fuses and relays from the UHJB. Pull straight up so as to not make any more loose ones. A small screw driver and gently prying under the relays will help. Fuse puller for fuses. Now with everything removed from the UHJB you will see 2 10mm bolts on the center line. Unscrew them and lift the top straight off. Locate you loose connector by using the top and the cover as a map. Pull it off being very sure you know where it goes back to. Tighten it up and replace. Put everything back together. That will fix the loose relay contact problem.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:36 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

This is the fuse panel on the passenger side under the HVAC controls in the center console. I found some bolts on the centerlines but couldnt figure out how to get apart. I will try some more.
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

Quote:
Originally Posted by gutter View Post
.......then I wiggle the relay, the car shuts off. Then I start to feel how the relay goes in the socket as compared to the others. I maybe goes in 1/16" of tension from the socket. I check a different one, it's more like 3/16-1/4" of tension. I barely have to wiggle on the fuel relay and it comes out of the socket. It's GOT to be the female spade terminals in the relay socket. I don't know if they got shoved back into the fuse panel too far where they make intermittent connections???!!!!
I think you're the expert here with observations ^ ^ like that! Excellent troubleshooting from where I'm sitting!
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

Well, I have seen some crazy stuff in the production plant field. I work in a wood plant. I have a 2 yr Electro-mechanical degree and doing an Electrical/Instrumentation apprenticeship at work. We have anything from loose connections to operator issues.

Just yesterday I had an issue where a 24VDC brake wouldn't release on a servo-motor. It was controlled by a 5 VDC SS relay from a computer. So I had many things to try to eliminate. Here....it ended up being a small break in a 20 foot long 18/2 cable that gets flexed all day long. Took 3 hours to nail the problem down and another 3 to re-run the cable.

This is the ONLY reason I have patience with this stuff. I'm not satsified until I can fix it. And you know....I know ***** about cars. I change my oil, the basics. But if it's electrical on a car, I will try to tackle it. So, thanks for the compliment.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:16 PM   #13
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

If the A/C relay is moved to the I/P Junction block it is constructed in basically the same way but you will probably have to extract it from under the dash to be able to get the front off of it. When you get it apart don't try and take the pin sandwich apart. All of the interconnect wiring is mounted in the top and bottom and the middle piece holds the pins. The pins have a notch on the upper and lower side to accept the wires. The wires are held in channels in the top and bottom. The later models might be constructed slightly different. On the earlier cars the A/C relay is located in the UHJB.

Ok, I read it again, fuel pump relay, its inside. Ther are comments on other posts relating to contacts being pushed back on the I/P panel. Pull the 68 pin plug off of the back and take a look.

I have modified a 98 and 99 but no later ones.

You can peer in there and see the gauge of the interconnect wire.

Last edited by OldNuc; 08-07-2008 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 08-08-2008, 02:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

OK...got the fuse panel apart. It wasn't that bad. Just an uncomfortable spot to lay on the floor..... So, I crimped the female spade coupler that connects the wire spade to the relay/fuse spades. I did this on the fuel pump relay. And voila!!!!! I can start the vehicle with no issues at all. I will totally reassemble everything and drive for a couple days to test. But I think the problem is solved. Thanks for all the help and replies!! I appreciate it!!
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Old 08-08-2008, 03:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

Those junction blocks are a rather unique construction. Strikes me as a bunch of failures waiting to happen. And they did a great job of jamming it in there under the dash to make sure that it was hard to work on.

Glad to know that you have fixed the problem.
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:00 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

Well, I spoke too soon. Her car quit again today. She said that her gauges went dead and some of the dash lights stayed on while she drove. I'll get the specifics after I talk to her again.

But she was able to get half way across town with no gauges working. Then the car sputtered out. So, I am going to check the fuel again to see if I get the fuel pump signal as I'm starting the car. I wondered if it's the Crank sensor that I've read about that tells the fuel and ignition to "work". Or, it's back to wondering about her ignition cylinder. Her key is worn and has to work it quite a bit in the ignition. Already had a new key cut with no luck a couple weeks back. Still hard to work the key. I thought maybe the passlock was acting up. But the security light should come on, right? It does not. And I don't get the instrument gauge issue. I just don't know where to start. If you have any suggestions...let me know. Thanks!!!
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

I would be looking to car-part.com for a nice new panel. These things are tough to troubleshoot unless you actually experience the failure in person.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:13 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

If she was able to get half way across town w/o gauges the cps isn't the problem as the engine is running and a failure of the cps, even an intermittent one, wouldn't let the engine run at all. The gauges going out are a separate issue altogether different with a dying engine. And you are correct about the cps; as long as the engine rotates the cps outputs timing data signals crucial to the PCM in order for the PCM to operate the fuel pump, ignition system, and the injector pulses. No cps output = a dead engine. The car sputtering out can be anything from an empty gas tank to an intermittent cps and everything in-between.

A worn ignition switch difficult to use even with a new key made from Saturn may be another problem among problems and might be a priority replacement to eliminate ignition switch mechanics. Be aware that a Passlock re-learn may have to be performed before the replacement switch will work. Looks like some more troubleshooting ahead.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

Well, I think I have some progress. Well, first, I was wrong. The wrench, SES, AND THE SECURITY light are all on after you turn on the ignition and the "test" lights go out. I do not have a signal to the pump relay either. So, now that you know the security light comes on, you think I should start with that Ignition cylinder? I realize that a re-learn will probably have to happen. I am going to call the dealership for parts. They should sell it to me if I my GF is along with the title and ID correct??
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: 2002 SC2 won't start...have narrowed it down

Ok called Saturn...if it's the cylinder, $70 with a new cut key. Just need ID and title. And it will need a relearn. If it does all point to this, are these easy to change? I thought I did a search a couple weeks back where someone said it wasn't too bad.
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