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Old 05-02-2016, 11:22 PM   #1
spitfireap
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2008 Astra XR
Default Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

I've got a red 4 door 2008 Astra XR with 140k miles. A few days ago I was driving in heavy rain, looking for somewhere to pull over and wait it out, when I drove through about 2 foot deep water for just a few seconds (It was raining so hard I didn't even see the standing water). Later that day my CEL came on and the car had a hard time accelerating with noticeable power loss. Climbing over a highway bridge that I usually handle at 65mph with no issues, I'm struggling to get the car uphill going 40mph. Connected a tester and read codes P1101, P065E with pending code P0068.

I'm quite sure the water didn't come up to the cold air intake, but some could have been splashed in. I checked the air filter later that day and it didn't feel wet, but it had been hours so could have dried some. I cleaned off the MAF sensor, let it dry, and reinstalled it. Same issue. Any idea on what my next step should be?

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Old 05-03-2016, 01:26 PM   #2
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

1. Try cleaning the throttle body.

Do some research online for full instructions and some stumbling blocks. For example, some recommend not spraying directly in but rather using a rag dampened with throttle body cleaner else the car may be tough to start.

Make sure to get under the butterfly and the circumference of closure. Some say that you should not physically move the butterfly valve or risk it going out of synch and need to reset (there are tips on line for that procedure which does not look tough to do); I didn't have that problem. Took me about 10 minutes:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=200011

2. I would definitely take the MAF for another full cleaning as that is a sensitive part. You may need a new MAF given age and mileage.

3. Get a new air filter; make sure it is factory-type NOT one of the "performance-types." Specialized air filters (e.g. oil impregnated) tend to drive codes on the Astra.

4. I see one guy in the above post also changed his plugs and the coil pack on the Astra. These cars generally need new spark plugs every 25,000 miles. And the coil pack is very delicate and fails frequently; some believe it will fail if plugs are not religiously changed. So change your plugs if due; note the coil pack could be a problem.

==> See if those steps clear P1101 and P0068; in the process the other valve timing code might resolve itself.

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Old 05-03-2016, 10:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstraFasta View Post
1. Try cleaning the throttle body.

2. I would definitely take the MAF for another full cleaning as that is a sensitive part. You may need a new MAF given age and mileage.

4. I see one guy in the above post also changed his plugs and the coil pack on the Astra. These cars generally need new spark plugs every 25,000 miles. And the coil pack is very delicate and fails frequently; some believe it will fail if plugs are not religiously changed. So change your plugs if due; note the coil pack could be a problem.

==> See if those steps clear P1101 and P0068; in the process the other valve timing code might resolve itself.
1. Cleaned the throttle body. I did open the butterfly valve, to reach inside and clean around it. It was fairly dirty. I sprayed a small amount in the intake and mainly used a rag sprayed with the throttle body cleaner.

2. I re-cleaned the MAF sensor with MAF cleaner.

4. Actually, I had a coil pack go bad about 1k miles ago so that's new along with new plugs I replaced at that same time. The car doesn't run like a coil is out, so I think that's good.

After cleaning, I started it up, cleared the codes, and took it for a drive but things are worse. The car initially drove somewhat well, but as it warmed up things got worse (It also did that before the cleaning, from a cold start it runs moderately well for a couple of minutes but as it heats up the power loss is much more noticeable). I was getting even less power. If press the gas pedal about halfway it slowly accelerates and sounds normal. If I press the gas further the power is actually reduced and the engine sounds like its growling a little.

The CEL came on and threw a couple more codes in addition to the original 3. It's now added these pending faults: P0172 (System too [Rich Bank 1]) and C1555 (Chassis). Attached is a picture of what Torque is showing for the codes and I'll attach a video showing (with car in neutral) results similar to what I was seeing on the road. I recorded the car in neutral in my driveway and show how pressing the gas causes the engine to struggle. I also started to hear a rattling underneath. The engine is shaking a bit with throttle input. The video will be linked as soon as it's finished uploading to youtube. Any further ideas on what's going on here?
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Last edited by spitfireap; 05-03-2016 at 10:26 PM..

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Old 05-03-2016, 10:54 PM   #4
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

The site won't let me post the youtube link because I haven't posted 15 times yet. Do a search on youtube for the title "Saturn Astra Engine Loss of Power" by user spitfireap77. .

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Old 05-03-2016, 11:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

That video is really helpful. It shows the engine bogging down when your kid presses the accelerator. And the rattling is significant.

Ignoring the codes I have had similar symptoms with different cars that were traced to clogged fuel filters and clogged catalytic converters. I don't think the fuel filter explains the rattling in your video, however. But this is pure speculation as I don't think these "fixes" relate to your Astra codes. So ignore them for now.

Your comments and video will provide good information for some of the pros to comment.

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Old 05-03-2016, 11:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstraFasta View Post
Ignoring the codes I have had similar symptoms with different cars that were traced to clogged fuel filters and clogged catalytic converters. I don't think the fuel filter explains the rattling in your video, however. But this is pure speculation as I don't think these "fixes" relate to your Astra codes. So ignore them for now.
Thanks for the quick response. The thought of the catalytic converter crossed my mind, but I'm getting no codes related to it. The catalytic converter was definitely underwater for a few seconds. I'm not knowledgeable enough about them to know if submersion for a short burst can do damage to them.

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Old 05-04-2016, 03:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Ok, I think I may have narrowed the issue down to the catalytic converter (despite the lack of codes) based on the symptoms I'm seeing and some measurements I was able to read. Thermal shock experienced when the hot cat hit the cold water of the puddle would explain a suddenly bad catcon. After watching Eric the Car Guy's catalytic converter video on youtube, I set up Torque on my phone to display the signals out of both O2 sensors and was seeing both sensors fluctuating between .2 and .8 volts with the car warmed up and running at about 2000 rpm. A thermal shocked cat would also explain the rattling I was hearing as the engine shook as the ceramic honeycomb would have broken when the cat's housing contracted. I'll have to do the temperature sensor test when I get home today to confirm this diagnosis.

To be completely sure, I'd want take readings with an exhaust back pressure tester, so I'll check later if O'reilly's rents them out.

I've only found a Magnaflow OEM catcon on amazon for $460 online. Anybody used one of these? How hard is it to replace the exhaust manifold+catalytic converter? Any tips on how to loosen up the rusted bolts at the bottom of the catalytic converter.

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Old 05-04-2016, 04:36 PM   #8
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Given the number of odd codes and the cost of the cat, you don't want to go parts chasing on this, otherwise it could get really expensive.

This could still be a relatively inexpensive sensor issue (e.g. MAF, o2, etc.). One thing to check for the rattling:

One of the "quirks" of the Astra is that the exhaust heat shields tend to slip through the screws holding them in. The thin alu sheet will rattle, particularly at certain frequencies (eg certain RPMs.) But it could vibrate all the time, likely with different rattles at different RPMs.

I would speculate that this heat shield failure is typical with salty-state cars, but driving through a lot water could have bent the metal or ripped it from some bolts. So check to see if that rattling is from a loose heat shield which may be flapping around or resting on the exhaust.

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Old 05-04-2016, 05:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Oh, I'm definitely not spending $460 before being sure this is a problem. Depending on the results of a couple of other simple tests I'm doing when I get home, I'll probably order an exhaust back pressure gauge which should give me a definitive answer. I'll keep this post up to date with what I find. Thanks for your inputs.

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Old 05-04-2016, 11:16 PM   #10
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

So I did a couple more tests and am quite sure it's the catalytic converter. Is there a second one behind the flexpipe?

I removed the front O2 sensor and revved the engine with MUCH improved results. No bogdown - the exhaust had an escape through the O2 sensor hole.

I then used a infrared thermometer to measure the exhaust pipe temperature (car at 2000 rpm) right before the catcon (570 F) and immediately after (370 F).

Both these just confirm that exhaust is unable to or restricted from passing through the converter. I'm ordering the exhaust pressure gauge and the new catalytic converter tonight. If, after testing with the gauge I am seeing normal pressures (which is highly unlikely, I think), then I can always return the catcon.

Last edited by spitfireap; 05-04-2016 at 11:17 PM.. Reason: spelling

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Old 05-07-2016, 08:30 AM   #11
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Unless you try using one of several GM online parts sites allowing anyone to view parts drawings or another Astra member to confirm only one catcon exists, the one catcon directly after the exhaust manifold may be the only catcon. Most members finding a partially blocked catcon strangling exhaust flow usually confirm it the same way you did. Removing the front O2 sensor for a LOUD drive around the block. A diverter made from soup can sheet metal can help divert hot exhaust gases away from anything that suffers from a direct blast of high temperature heat. Renewed power verifies a blocked catcon. It's rare for anyone to use a pressure gauge to measure exhaust pressure. Even fewer know what pressure is considered normal (<8 psi at wide open throttle).

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Old 05-07-2016, 08:52 PM   #12
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Good to see one of the pros has dropped in...

"thesilversaturn" guy below claims he had clogged the principal catalytic converter + another downstream "box" between #13 & #21:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=203983

I think there is something wrong, maybe the diagram changed, as that "box" he identified looks an awful like the flexpipe. Maybe he is referring to the "box2" which is after the line marked #14:

http://www.tonkinonlineparts.com/sho...ssembly=811470

Send him a message and see what he says...

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Old 05-09-2016, 02:42 AM   #13
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
It's rare for anyone to use a pressure gauge to measure exhaust pressure. Even fewer know what pressure is considered normal (<8 psi at wide open throttle).
Well, I got the pressure gauge today and it only confirmed what I suspected. I was seeing 4 psi at idle and 10 psi at 2000rpm, revving further just took the needle past the 15 psi upper marking on the dial. I can say with certainty now that the thing is blocked. Disappointingly, the manifold/catcon has not shipped yet so i'm gonna call tomorrow to find out what's going on. Not the end of the world as I bought an older Durango (cheap) as an extra vehicle on Saturday. I wanted a 4wd as a backup anyway as the Astra doesn't do that great in the snow here in northern Missouri. I'll update once I've replaced the part.

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Old 05-11-2016, 01:22 AM   #14
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Got the catalytic converter today and installed it. Turns out Stillen had shipped it but didn't send me the tracking info until I called them. It's a Magnaflow converter and is shaped slightly different from the OEM one it replaced. Biggest issues are that I had to enlarge the cutout a little around the O2 sensor opening in the heat shield, and the O2 sensor sticks out at a different angle but is still reachable. There is also no bracket on the bottom half to screw the heat shield into - I'm gonna have to fabricate some kind of a restraint to prevent rattling.

As you can see from the pics, the catalytic converter ceramic was in bad shape - lots of pieces. I don't know if any ceramic chunks were blown back towards the resonator or muffler, but I'll watch the performance closely to see if there is still any restriction to the exhaust. After breaking the new converter in by idling for 5 minutes followed by 2500 rpm for 2 minutes, a quick drive confirms the problem is fixed.
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File Type: jpg P_20160510_220805.jpg (123.0 KB, 28 views)

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Old 05-11-2016, 01:47 AM   #15
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Congratulations and nice job!

Did your codes clear away?

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Old 05-12-2016, 10:31 AM   #16
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Did you have any difficulties with the exhaust manifold bolts or the ones at the bottom of the cat? Did you have the heat any of them up or just WD40 them?

...
08 Salsa Red Astra XR 5dr 5spd
Spt Pkg, Prem. Aud. and Sunroof

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Old 05-16-2016, 08:32 PM   #17
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Quote:
Originally Posted by AstraFasta View Post
Did your codes clear away?

Unfortunately, it seems I jumped the gun with my excitement. While the cat was definitely bad and had to be replaced, it seems some of the broken ceramic was pushed pack into the rear parts of the exhaust system and is still clogging things. I still have the power loss issues. To confirm my assumption, I loosened the bottom bolts on the lower part of the cat to give the exhaust an escape before the exhaust tubing. I then proceeded on a very loud, but full powered trip around the block. I don't know how far back the chunks have gone, but shaking around the exhaust piping, I could hear some of the ceramic rattling around.

I'm not sure if I can just have the piping removed and the ceramic just shaken out, or if I'll have to replace everything back from the cat. I have some more investigating to do. Unfortunately, I have no welding ability so I'm gonna have to find someone to help on this part.

Last edited by spitfireap; 05-16-2016 at 08:39 PM..

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Old 05-16-2016, 08:35 PM   #18
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

Quote:
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Did you have any difficulties with the exhaust manifold bolts or the ones at the bottom of the cat? Did you have the heat any of them up or just WD40 them?
As for the bolts, they were not hard to budge with only a little help from a breaker bar. Liberally spraying them with penetrating oil didn't hurt, I'm sure. The hardest thing was reaching the bottom bolts where the manifold is bolted into the engine.

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Old 05-17-2016, 07:46 AM   #19
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

what about getting the manifold out. did it simply slide out or did you have to remove the front end of the car (i.e. rad & condenser).

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Old 05-17-2016, 08:02 PM   #20
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Default Re: Power Loss, Poor acceleration, codes P1101, P065E, P0068

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what about getting the manifold out. did it simply slide out or did you have to remove the front end of the car (i.e. rad & condenser).
No, it didn't simply slide out. I had to remove the radiator fan, oil dipstick tube, air intake, and front beam where the hood latch is located. Once all that was out it was easy to remove.

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