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Old 07-08-2019, 03:47 PM   #21
OldNuc
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

This is the general standard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_72552 The relay circuit numbers and sometimes the actual pin designation is on the specific component diagram. The electronic srvice manual has a lot less info that a paper copy.

The pin you identified as 10 should be 30 and the general use ids in the standard. 30 is power feed and 87 is the NC contact and 87b is the No contact when the relay coil is denergized.

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Old 07-08-2019, 03:58 PM   #22
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

My bad as I rushed without labeling drawings. The instrument panel fuse block and underhood fuse block are labeled for clarity. As you can see from drawings and labeling on relays, pins 30 and 87 are the switched internal electrical contacts. 85 and 86 are pcm control signals to power 87A relays.
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Old 07-08-2019, 04:08 PM   #23
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

If you look at the standard you will see where the general confusion is. Everyone does this different depending on who is the actual circuit designer. Important to have the actual diagram for what you are working on.

Last edited by OldNuc; 07-08-2019 at 04:15 PM..

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Old 07-08-2019, 04:48 PM   #24
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

Oldnuc, you're right the "10" should be a "30". The raised lettering on the relay was very hard to read because they are very shallow. I took a pic of it and it sure looks like a "10" at first glance. With another look I can barely make out that it is indeed a "30". It looked like a "10" probably due to the angle the light was coming from.

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Old 07-08-2019, 05:04 PM   #25
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

That is an example of a non-standard relay for Saturn. This is why you have to look at the schematic and the marked circuit numbers. No idea where that relay actually came from. That 10 has a specific meaning but I have no idea what it is now. You can search on the part number on the other end and maybe find out who made it for what. It is obviously acting as the 30 contact though.

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Old 07-08-2019, 05:18 PM   #26
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
That is an example of a non-standard relay for Saturn. This is why you have to look at the schematic and the marked circuit numbers. No idea where that relay actually came from. That 10 has a specific meaning but I have no idea what it is now. You can search on the part number on the other end and maybe find out who made it for what. It is obviously acting as the 30 contact though.
That is the original relay from the factory. If you look at that pic really close, you can see that the "10" is really a "30". I'll take another pic later.

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Old 07-08-2019, 05:42 PM   #27
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

Looked like a 10 to me as well. And it is a valid designator but an odd one.

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Old 07-08-2019, 07:59 PM   #28
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

I took a better pic. This one looks like a "30" .

The middle one w/o a terminal (between 85 & 87) is labeled "87o" with Is that "o" suppose to be a "c"?

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Old 07-08-2019, 08:10 PM   #29
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

Looks like a lower case "a" to me which is what it should be.

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Old 07-08-2019, 08:49 PM   #30
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Looks like a lower case "a" to me which is what it should be.
Per DIN 72552 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_72552
87 is common
87a is N.c.
87b is N.o.

Something still not jiving.

Saturn does not conform to DIN 72552? or maybe the relay does not conform?

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Old 07-08-2019, 11:17 PM   #31
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

It can be a bunch of both. The relay conforms to the manufactures definition set. That is why you go to the manufacturer for that info. The actual wiring is up to the designer and at that point you have to drag out the print and figure out exactly how it is wired up. All of this nomenclature rules can go right up in smoke, literally.

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Old 07-09-2019, 10:04 AM   #32
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

I tried measuring the amps draw of the window motors and burned out something in the DVM... $20 HF unit. The DVM display was flickering so I held the window switches even though window had stopped. Did that a few times then the windows stopped working! That's when I saw the DVM was in the AC amps scale, thus the flickering. Holding the window switches while stopped draws more current than when moving, that's probably why the meter burned out!

I learned later that the 20 amp scale is unfused! Doh! No big dea.... cheap DVM. I'll see if I can fix it.

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Old 07-09-2019, 10:42 AM   #33
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

File it in the trash can, your time is worth more than that HF meter.

If you want to see how a manufacturer designates a relay then pull up the actual specification sheet. Easily fund by googling the model number and then lloking for a seller. Mouser is the best bet to have all docs on line.

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Old 07-10-2019, 09:11 AM   #34
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
File it in the trash can, your time is worth more than that HF meter.
(................).
I always try to fix any electrical / electronic/ mechanical devices that breaks! That's how I become so good at it. I say I have a 90% success rate.

Anyway I spent a few minutes yesterday checking the HF meter's 20 amps circuit with another ohmeter and found it was not open circuited. I did not see or smell anything burnt, so I tried measuring current with a 1.5 volt D cell in series with a 10 ohm resistor and it did produce a reading!

This morning I needed to use the HF meter again and it was totally inoperative. Probed it with another ohmeter and my latest diagnosis is that one of the probes on the HF meter was/ is intermittent. That's not surprising due to the cheap wires and insulation used on these cheap meters. If I take the probes apart and re-solder them, I think that should fix it.

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Old 07-10-2019, 09:23 AM   #35
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

IT will for some random period of time. High quality Pomona or Fluke probes cost lots of real dollars and don't break. The slightly lower cost Chinese rip offs also work well.

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Old 07-11-2019, 02:51 PM   #36
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

The red probe was intermittent at the banana plug end of the meter input so I cut the wire and soldered it back on and it is working again!

Just took a current measurement of a window motor. 6 amps while going up and down and 16 amps stalled.

Such a nice convenience feature to have not needing the key to open the windows! It's the first thing I do after opening the doors of a hot Saturn.

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Old 07-12-2019, 03:34 PM   #37
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

The solder fuse burned out today as I closed the windows and held the switch a bit too long as the motor stalled. The windows stopped working after that. A solder fuse definitely works, it just has to be sized properly.

Working current of a window motor is 6 amps, stalled current is 16 amps. I used 2 strands of solder twisted in parallel. Maybe 3 strands of will make the fuse above 16 amps but below 30 amps?

Since the windows are already protected by a 30 amp fuse in the junction box, I am not going to bother and will just put a wire jumper in.

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Old 07-12-2019, 04:02 PM   #38
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

Go buy a 20 or 25 amp fuse, it will be much cheaper in the long run.

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Old 07-12-2019, 11:03 PM   #39
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Go buy a 20 or 25 amp fuse, it will be much cheaper in the long run.
Have you looked at this diagram? Why should I put a 20 or 25 amp fuse in series with the 30 amp fuse that's already in the UHFB?


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Old 07-12-2019, 11:13 PM   #40
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Is it possible to modify my 02 SL2 to open/ close windows w/o key in ignition?

Because the motor fries at 30A. The 30a fuse is toprotect the upstream source of power, you want to protect the motor from inadvertent stuck switch.

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