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Old 08-03-2019, 03:30 PM   #1
bmetdave
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Default Intermittent No-Crank, or No-Start (need help!)

We purchased a 2007 Vue Greenline 4 months ago with 73,000 miles. Recently we started to have no-crank issues when key turned. 1st time issue occured, I shorted starter solenoid with key in run, drove home, replaced starter and large 30 amp fuse under hood in small fuse block. 2 days later, same problem; found starter wire pinched between dipstick tube and harness, rubbed through; corrected, isolated with rubber tubing; replaced fuse again. Four days later, while 450 miles from home in Atlanta, fuse to turn signals blew. Replaced fuse, no crank issue back. 30 amp starter fuse ok. Tried shorting solenoid to starter terminal; crank, but no start. Checked other fuses; all ok. Checked for fuel pressure by pressing schrader valve in fuel rail; no pressure. No fuel pump noise when key turned on. Located fuel pump relay; checked for power to both sides of contacts with key on; no voltage. Checked continuity on relay coil; good. After a while, engine began cranking with key, but still no start condition. Called dealer, called mobile mech; nothing they could do. Tried disconnecting negative cable from battery and shorted between negative cable and positive terminal of fuse block (to disipate any residual charge as per dealer mechanic I spoke with). No crank, no start. Some more fiddling with relays, re-seating, etc... engine would crank, but still no start, still no fuel pressure, Checked for spark (during time when it would crank with key); good. Mind you, this was in the middle of Atlanta rush hour, in an afternoon downpour with less than a second of lightening to thunder interval. After 2 and a half hours, in desperation, at the suggestion of my son to check continuity of fuel pump wire (could not get to pump wire at tank), I released 4 clips that hold the under hood fuse block (disconnected 3 positive cables first) to check for loose wire on back (remember no power to fuel pump relay contacts); nothing found, pushed on connectors underneath; re-seated fuse block in clips. Resigned myself that we would be spending night in Atlanta. Said a VERY sincere prayer to our Lord (I'm not kidding, I believe in His power), and told my son to try one more time. It started. Told him not to shut off and we are going home instead of to our next college tour stop. Made it home around 230 am. Never shut off car, even for gas or food. Turn signal fuse blew again at about 250 mile mark, but made it home. Trying to locate wiring schematic to determine if connection between turn signal fuse (another circuit seeking ground via fuse?) and no start or no crank issues. Had code reader with me at the time; no codes at all. Intermittently having common key-stuck in ignition problem, but not with Wife's key ever; strange. Like the car, low miles, don't feel like it is reliable tho. Planning to re-seat connectors on bottom of under hood fuse block. Really need some help with this please.

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Old 08-03-2019, 06:41 PM   #2
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Post Re: Intermittent No-Crank, or No-Start (need help!)

Without access to service manuals, your choices are subscribing to alldata or Mitchell for online access to manuals, searching online for free s/m info, buying manuals or searching for a member here volunteering info thru private messaging in these Vue forums (his signature). I can only speculate on two possible starter circuits - conventional 12v or low voltage logic/electronic starting. The fuel system circuit remains unchanged.

With GM EFI systems, turning on ignition automatically enables a timed event to run the fuel pump for a few seconds regardless of starting or not. If the engine isn't started, the fuel pump shuts off after timing out - it isn't necessary to have a fuel pump running if the engine isn't started. When starting, the fuel pump runs. If engine start fails, pump shuts off.

Pump circuitry is relatively simple if measuring or bypassing the fuel pump circuit at the pump relay. The majority of relays used is the common 87a, either 4 or 5 pinouts. Examine the relay for pinout info. The four pinouts needed are 85 and 86 (starting circuit from ign switch or ecm), and 30 and 87 (switched 12v pwr to the pump). All 87a relays are controlled (solenoid power) from 85 and 86 with one pin either 12v with ign turned to START position or the ecm sending 12v. Pins 30 and 87 are the relay (internal contacts) closing to send fused 12v to the pump. If you need to measure for two 12v pins, only one will be hot at all times with the other (85 or 86) having 12v only when the ign switch is turned to START. For maintenance or other reasons like emptying the fuel tank, a wire jumper across relay socket terminals 30 and 87 will send 12v to power the fuel pump immediately, regardless of ign switch position.

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Old 08-03-2019, 07:54 PM   #3
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Default Re: Intermittent No-Crank, or No-Start (need help!)

Thanks for the response. I wasn't 100% sure with the car, so I brought my tools with me on our trip. I was not getting fuel pump run on start (not even for a few seconds). I understand the pump runs under demand to maintain pressure. You are correct, the fuel pump relay is a simple 4 connector unit with pinout on the side; N.O. contacts and 2 coil pins. I should have had 12 v on one side of the contacts any time key is on, I thought and pressure switch should pull relay in and out to maintain pressure setpoint. I did not see 12v on either contact with key on. I tried jumping 12v to fuel pump relay contact point socket, but may have chosen incorrect one, since pressure did not build on rail and I didn't hear pump run. I suspect if car now starts (haven't tried since we got home; had to go to work 6 hours later), that i will see 12 v on one of the relay socket contact points. I am still suspecting a loose ground somewhere. Do you think it could be the key switch? When I was having problem, I tested other accessories such as windows, wipers, lights, seat, etc... to try to find something else that was not working properly. All else worked. About 2 weeks after we bought the Vue, the electric cooling fan blade separated and poked a hole in the radiator. Replaced radiator, fan, upper hose. When under the car to check for leaks, I found front trans mount cracked and trans pan dented. Serviced trans (fluid/filter) and replaced pan and mount. When I replaced the mount, I was going by feel. In an effort to remove upper bolt, I went too high and removed a nut from a stud on the block; there were two wires attached. Once I realized i had the wrong bolt/nut, I reinstalled the two wires and tightened. I am wondering if i missed a third ground wire on this stud and it may be the cause. It is odd that by pushing on the connectors on the back of the underhood fuse block, that the car then started. I will also check for connections there and use some contact cleaner. Saw a video that there is a cluster of ground wires under the drivers side kick panel; will check that also. From my research, these cars seem to have wonky electrical issues. Are you aware of any tech bulletins that might be helpful? I ran the vin and there are no open recalls. I will check into the subscription services; checked with Identifix (30 day access for $20) but they did not have the 07 Vue Hybrid in their list. Thanks for your help.

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Old 08-03-2019, 09:33 PM   #4
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Default Re: Intermittent No-Crank, or No-Start (need help!)

Try finding a Vue member here. His signature is answering private messages and providing info as he's an infrequent visitor here. Many have asked and received his help otherwise Alldata or Mitchell are your best sources of service manual info second to none. I had access to both at one time or another and can recommend them. They're inexpensive compared to visiting GM as you can download or print info for your model. Service bulletins included.

Some vehicles have three fuse panels, main one in the engine bay, up to two more in the interior. Hybrid Vues have additional hardware and battery for hybrid operation and complicates this intermittent problem. I'm guessing here with little knowledge of hybrid architecture, wiring and how problems may interfere with everyday driving. I wouldn't attempt second guessing this problem until having full access to service manuals to learn more before trying to diagnose and troubleshoot. If I'm not mistaken, the generator is also the starter with a complex belt tensioning system for zero idle and instant starting at stoplights. There's much more to Vue hybrid systems than can be covered here even if someone has extensive knowledge. My imagination stops when there's a source of GM info to refer to compared to hearsay and misinformation from well meaning people.

The fuel circuits are easier to troubleshoot since there are only two circuits - the control side and power side. If grounds are suspect, grounds are everywhere and described as ground splice packs where several ground wires are tied to a terminal strip that's fastened to chassis studs around the vehicle. It's presumed these ground splice packs have black wires for grounds for each nearby circuit. They're obvious once spotted with black wires coming together into a plastic insulated block fastened to chassis studs.

Generic readers are not capable of displaying advanced problems like this. Readers are made to decode only emissions related error codes. Expensive scantools do more but a diyer must have some knowledge of their vehicle to wade thru many layers of electronics.

Last edited by fdryer; 08-03-2019 at 09:45 PM..

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Old 08-03-2019, 10:47 PM   #5
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Default Re: Intermittent No-Crank, or No-Start (need help!)

Checked out Mitchell1; some bad reviews on BBB. Alldata is $179 per month. Are you saying there is a forum member named "his signature"? If so, unable to locate in member list. Could you please clarify? Have searched for factory manuals for 2007 Vue unsuccessfully. Do you have a source? Thanks

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Old 08-04-2019, 12:35 AM   #6
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Default Re: Intermittent No-Crank, or No-Start (need help!)

Alldata @$179/month?! Where?! Here's Alldatdiy.com, $30/yr for the first car; https://www.alldatadiy.com/buy/index.html. Perhaps I neglected to point you to the diy side of alldata. I'm guessing the $179 is commercial subscription for repair shops or anyone wanting access to every service manual in the world(?). Mitchell 1 DIY for $20, one month, $30/yr; https://eautorepair.net/Marketing/Default.asp

I was given access to the commercial side of Mitchell online some years ago and was very impressed at the info for almost any vehicle I asked for. No more. The same for alldata from a member here providing me his password to alldata access for his vehicle's service manuals - same impression of info as Mitchell.

I'm reluctant to spell out a Vue member's name. His name is not "his signature". A signature is in the comments box at the bottom of every comment or reply as a way to add personal info to inform members of status. This 'signature' is in addition to whatever info is under a member's name. This Vue member's signature message is "I try to visit forum often but suggest you use private messages if in a rush (comes to cell) and include email address for extracts. I seldom check visitor messages so please don't use."

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Old 08-04-2019, 01:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Intermittent No-Crank, or No-Start (need help!)

Thank you for the alldatadyi link. The DYI was the magic add. $30/yr. Lots of great material there. After reviewing site and printing off several references, started troubleshooting. First, car started; pulled up on ramps. Disconnected battery and began to pull under-hood fuse box to clean contacts and connectors. Noticed that C2 (purple) connector appeared loose. While trying to figure out correct way to release connectors, realized that the three small bolt that secure the inner cover actually keep the connectors seated. They were loose. Believe this trouble was self-induced. The first time no-crank issue happened (due to short on starter wire to dip stick tube), during troubleshooting. I pulled the cover to the UH fuse box, saw the internal cover and assumed, incorrectly, that the small bolts needed to be loosened to remove inner cover. I never tightened them back up completely, therefore causing my intermittent fuel issue. Tightened and then checked voltage to fuel pump relay. All readings as expected 12 v to pin 30 and then 12v to relay coil when key turned to run. Still trying to determine why turn signal fuse blew twice. Also noticed that drivers door no longer causes the dome light to illuminate. Don't see any connection with UH fuse box; may be unrelated issue. Will continue to troubleshoot with AlldataDYI info. Thanks for your help.

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Old 08-04-2019, 06:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: Intermittent No-Crank, or No-Start (need help!)

Thank goodness you didn't buy into the expensive plan. Hopefully your access to service manuals will get you thru to a solution. And if possible, if you don't mind, post any follow-up so hybrid members may come across your thread and see a fix for their problem.

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