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Old 01-15-2006, 09:16 PM   #1
axr6
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Default What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

I have a '99 SW2 with similar problems as a previous overheating post.

When in heavy traffic or on slow, first-gear dirt roads, the engine temps climb past the half way point and keep going. At this point the engine fan is still not on. Thus far, by the time I got to this temp reads, the traffic or road opened up to get up to speed and get those temps back down.

Still, it bugs me, as to; "what if the outside temps were not in the 50's but in the 90's or what if the traffic jam would last longer?"

I have read some of the other posts where it is considered normal for the fan not to come on before .5 to 3/4 up the temp gauge and at about 220 F. That seems way too high for me.

My question is: is there a way to make the engine fan come on earlier using some other sensors or what if I built a manual switch to turn on the fan as the temps start climbing? Does anyone know where would be the best spot to catch the wire that goes to the fan for a manual switch application?

Thanks for any advice

PS - I had changed the ECTS not too long ago (probably less than 10K miles for a stalling problem. Now the car runs perfect, except this heating.

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Old 01-15-2006, 09:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

These cars were designed to run hotter than older cars,the fan should come on at the 3/4 mark which is around 220.As for a hotter day my cooling system works fine when its 115 outside with a/c going full blast so I doubt 90 will be a problem.
Only way to make it come on sooner is to put in a manual switch. Don

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Old 01-15-2006, 10:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

A) Turn on the AC. This will kick the fan on. You can click the a/c off after a couple seconds and the a/c will turn off but the fan will remain on for a while to cool the engine.

B)Look up wolfmans thread on installing a manual fan switch. its in the how-to library.

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Old 01-15-2006, 10:46 PM   #4
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Thumbs Up Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

Thanks for the great advice. I've read Wolfman's description and will implement it on my car. I drive a lot of first gear dirt roads in the car and will get good use of the manual switch.

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Old 01-15-2006, 11:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?


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Old 01-16-2006, 02:16 AM   #6
Sky King
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

I know there are two definate opinions on this. First I think the engineers who designed the car established what the normal operating temp is supposed to be and what they established as too hot.

Like previous posts have indicated, you can simply turn on the air conditioner which will cause the fan to turn on. Otherwise you can install the manual fan switch. I personally do not feel it necessary to override the normal systems on the car as long as the fan comes on prior to the overheat range and keeps the engine within the normal operating temp parameters.

The thermostat does not even open prior 190 to 195 degrees and the fan turns on in the 220 to 223 degree range. That is only a differance of 25 to 30 degrees. Many people want to force the fan on at a temp before the thermostat would even open. I can not believe that contributes to the most effecient operation.

Just my .02 worth.

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Old 01-16-2006, 04:15 AM   #7
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky King
Like previous posts have indicated, you can simply turn on the air conditioner which will cause the fan to turn on. Otherwise you can install the manual fan switch. I personally do not feel it necessary to override the normal systems on the car as long as the fan comes on prior to the overheat range and keeps the engine within the normal operating temp parameters.

Situation dictates.

i.e. Grapevine from Bakersfield to Los Angeles.
Los Angeles traffic at 5 o'clock on a weekday.
San Diego beach front.

Sometimes it's just advised against to use your AC, and turning it on and off in 2 minute intervals seems pretty absurd. I personally have had fan switches in all my cars for this exact reason. Better for me to look at a guage standing still at about half, than to watch it bounce back and forth between the half and 3/4 mark.

But as I stated above, situation dictates.

axr6: How fast do you go on dirt roads? Staying in first gear for an extended period of time seems pretty ridiculous to me. Or is it pretty fierce terrain that you must slowly advance your way forward? Are you still pretty new to driving a manual tranny? I'm just curious, so please don't take it the wrong way.

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Old 01-16-2006, 09:37 AM   #8
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Information Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

I have had similar problems with other cars in that by the time the fan came on the party was over and the engine was already overheating. GM had several bad runs of temperature sensors in the past - after changing 4 on a pontiac I had , the part number was supserceded to a new one. On 2 of my previous cars I put in an adjustable temperature fan controller. It worked quite nicely and I simple set it to the temp I needed and forgot about it. Ad link and photo are below.

http://www.midwayautosupply.com/deta...tion.asp?13186

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Old 01-16-2006, 01:25 PM   #9
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Nguyen
Situation dictates.

i.e. Grapevine from Bakersfield to Los Angeles.
Los Angeles traffic at 5 o'clock on a weekday.
San Diego beach front.

Sometimes it's just advised against to use your AC, and turning it on and off in 2 minute intervals seems pretty absurd. I personally have had fan switches in all my cars for this exact reason. Better for me to look at a guage standing still at about half, than to watch it bounce back and forth between the half and 3/4 mark.

But as I stated above, situation dictates.

.
Oh, I fully understand the logic behind your decision to install and use the manual fan switch, I just respectfully disagree with the need . I understand that many people on this board have installed and use these switches. I just don't feel it is a problem for the temp to oscillate from below the half mark to the point where the fan will kick in normally. While a majority of my driving is rural interstate and forward speed provides all the flow normally necessary, I do commute daily on urban interstate. It is not unusual for traffic to come to a dead stop when a wreck occurs. When that happens, the temp will go up. But like I said, as long as the fan comes on prior to the overheat, I feel it is operating with the criteria the engineers specified.

As I have posted before, the temps indicated by the gauge are only relative as it is not marked off in degrees and the differance from 1/4 to 3/4 is not really that much. I have determined this with a scan tool. By manually switching on the fan before the half mark, you are only turning it on about 10 to 15 degrees before it would come on anyway.

I know Wolfman wrote the thread detailing how to install the manual fan switch, but I would be curious to know if he put one on his car and if so does he use it.

Again, just my .02 worth, respectfully

...
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Old 01-16-2006, 02:27 PM   #10
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

I read wolfman's thread when I became alarmed at very high temperatures while sitting still-the information seems very accurate and through. However, I have to disagree with the necessity. It would have been just as easy for Saturn to have made it come on at lower temperatures-so why didn't they...? Several reasons: a hotter engine is more efficient and pollutes less (or so I've heard); also, the fan is quite noisy if you have the windows open and are driving slowly (although if your going too slowly the fan will turn on after a while), and the fan does draw a significant amount of power from the alternator-while you probably won't notice the difference in gas-nothing is free! Also, it puts more stress on your electrical system (namely the alternator).
To sum it up-don't worry about it as long as the fan comes on before it gets in the red area (that would indicate a bad sensor or something). If it really bothers you-wolf's instructions seem very good-suit yourself.

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Old 01-16-2006, 04:46 PM   #11
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Default Rebuttal

If I may inject some rebuttals:

Quote:
>Fm Sky King <
I personally do not feel it necessary to override the normal systems
Actually, if the manual switch is added correctly, no system is over-ridden. It is simply an additional mode for activating the radiator fan, independantly, but in addition to, the other computer controlled activation procedures.

Quote:
>Fm M. Nguyen <
Situation dictates.

i.e. Grapevine from Bakersfield to Los Angeles.
Los Angeles traffic at 5 o'clock on a weekday
My very points, exactly, with the exception that I've changed my route from going over the Grapevine, to driving through Mojave, then on towards Bakersfield. As to the "5 o'clock" traffic -- I hit every afternoon. And it gotten much worse.

Quote:
>Fm Sky King <
I just respectfully disagree with the need
I've found it more important to insure that there is no excessive variation in the radiator fluid temperature. With freeway, stop & go, and City driving, as well as long distance hilly driving, I've found it much more comfortable to insure that the anti-freeze's temperature remains relatively constant; The thermostat takes care of that issue. [color

...
> 95 SL 2 = 653,369 Miles 40.4 MPG, as of 5/20/11. My manual Radiator Fan Switch, courtesy of Wolfman's patient installation guidance, continues to be.......invaluable < The car was retired

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Old 01-16-2006, 05:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

Anything below the red line is perfectly safe operating temperature. Having the fan come on earlier or keeping it on is just adding wear to the electrical system, alternator and the fan motor itself.

If you want to keep the car at a lower temp simply because you dont like seeing the gauge that high, or you want a neat switch mounted inside the car, you can install a switch to turn it on whenever you want it on.

The system was designed to balance out the wear of the electrical system, and the temperature at which the fan should kick on. It wasnt just thrown together by a monkey who said "Gee I guess I'll have it kick on here"

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Old 01-16-2006, 06:25 PM   #13
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

I am wondering if anyone has taken the idea of the "manual switch" and gone one step further by using something like an industrial fan controller with an adjustable temperature control that would cause the fan to come on at a certain ambient temperature. That way the fan could kick in earlier when it was hot out, and before the engine got around to energizing it. Something like they use to start up an attic fan..

It could be mounted on the firewall or inside the fenderwell. It would be just sitting there all winter, but would be an extra line of defense when it got hot out.

Maybe something like this might help the original poster.

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Old 01-16-2006, 10:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

making the fan run more = the fan failing sooner.Cant even count how many cooling fan motors I have replaced since the fans run all summer here when the engine is running . Don

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Old 01-17-2006, 08:11 AM   #15
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

a switch... there should be a how-to if you search the site...


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Old 06-15-2018, 01:18 PM   #16
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

Hey guys. No idea why I'm here, I don't even own a Saturn but have driven quite a few. I've always noticed the gauge go high before the fan kicks on. You can believe what you want, but that's not good for the engine. It's for emissions, and probably so you car wears out faster so you go buy a new one.

Anyway quick question, aside from adding your own manual switch, how else could you control the fan? Is it turned on via the ECM reading from the coolant temp sensor? Or is it a separate switch in the head/rad.

Either way I was thinking maybe you could reprogram the stock ECM or swap out fan switch to a lower temp. I have never worked on a GM but have been told it's easy to tune the stock ecu.

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Old 06-15-2018, 01:30 PM   #17
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PromiseRing View Post
Hey guys. No idea why I'm here
Because it's a hella great car forum?
Quote:
and probably so you car wears out faster so you go buy a new one.
Well . . . it did not work, because I have the latest year model of the S-series, and it is coming up on 16 years old. . . .

Quote:
I've always noticed the gauge go high
SkyKing is right, the gauge is really irrelevant other than as a gross indication of good/bad. It's an idiot light; more or less. If you check the actual temp with an OBDII reader, you'll see that he's correct. T-stat does not open until around 190~195F, fan kicks on around 210~220F (don't have exact number but they have been posted before)

It's more for fuel efficiency than emissions, but the two are closely related.
Quote:
Is it turned on via the ECM reading from the coolant temp sensor?
Yes, ECM (PCM) turns on the fan based on electric signal from ECTS

Quote:
Anyway quick question, aside from adding your own manual switch, how else could you control the fan?
Automatic "soft-on" fan controller, write-up by DIYguy

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=122873

Quote:
Either way I was thinking maybe you could reprogram the stock ECM or swap out fan switch to a lower temp. I have never worked on a GM but have been told it's easy to tune the stock ecu.
That's a negatory to all the above. The PCM is encrypted to keep folks from tampering with emissions, or other things like the fuel /timing maps, which would affect emissions. There's no stock fan switch, signal to turn on/off is controlled by the PCM.

It's not easy to tune a PCM, certainly not from 2nd gen on (I think I'd read that someone had cracked the Gen I, but did not pay much attention since my Saturns are Gen II and III)

Welcome to saturnfans, despite being saturnless. Be interesting to see if you come up with something new

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Last edited by alordofchaos; 06-15-2018 at 01:38 PM..

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Old 06-15-2018, 01:52 PM   #18
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

The fan kicks on when the coolant temperature is 221 degrees. The typical engine operating temperature is around 190-196 degrees. This applies to all model years of s series. So what temperature would you want the fan to kick on?

The fan really has nothing much to do with the engine temperature for the most part. The thermostat controls the flow of the coolant through the radiator. The thermostat starts opening at 192 and is fully open at 212. If the airflow through the radiator is not enough then the fan kicks on at 221 and turns off at 210. If the AC is on then the fan runs continuously regardless of what the thermostat is doing.

The only time the fan will kick on is if you're not moving - stop and go traffic or idling.

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Old 06-15-2018, 03:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

There is no mechanical need for the fan to come on earlier. You’re solving a problem that has never shown to exist on these engines. Best to take your concern to a psychologist

-Robert

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Old 06-15-2018, 03:20 PM   #20
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Default Re: What would it take to turn on the engine fan earlier?

While I agree there is no real significant problem with the OEM system, there was some discussion (in another thread) which lead eventually to DIYguy's mod. Fan op is binary - either off, or full blast.

In a normal system, there can be a temp fluctuation of 20~30 degrees in normal operation, between fan on and glide down. The soft-on mod reduces that window and temp fluctuates in a narrower band. That's probably better for the engine and parts, possibly even that left side radiator end tank.

So no, not really necessary, and I've certainly not rushed out to do it, but can be a helpful long term mod.

The important thing is that we can re-hash a 12-year old thread

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