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Old 02-24-2007, 02:15 AM   #1
97saturnsl1
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Default New EPA MPG calculator...

The EPA posted its new form of calculating MPG on cars, both new and old and you can compare the new ratings with old ratings back to 1985...seems more accurate now...

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp

**oddly pleased to notice the Prius got knocked down a LOT**

Last edited by 97saturnsl1; 02-24-2007 at 02:18 AM.. Reason: wrong website :P

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Old 02-24-2007, 11:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

If you compare the older cars changes (not much) in mpg to the newer car's change (a lot), it seems like car manufactures learned how to beat the system. Now we wait for them to do it again.

...
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Old 02-24-2007, 12:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

Our government has been lying to us?!?!? I don't believe it!

The EPA reconfigured their driving loop to better approximate real world conditions, hence the drop in estimated mileage (I guess someone realized most people don't drive 55mph on the highway anymore...)

Some vehicles saw upwards of a 25% drop, noticed Saturn slid about 10% from old to new.

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Old 02-24-2007, 01:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97saturnsl1 View Post
The EPA posted its new form of calculating MPG on cars, both new and old and you can compare the new ratings with old ratings back to 1985...seems more accurate now...

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp

**oddly pleased to notice the Prius got knocked down a LOT**

Nice link! A little closer to real world. You might check out link below too.

http://www.consumersunion.org/0906CAFEWhitePaper.pdf

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Old 02-24-2007, 01:07 PM   #5
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

I didn't look at the prius but you would have to be a retarded tree hugging hippy to buy one of those stupid things. They are the biggest waste of money unless you NEVER leave the city where it can regerate itself all the time. On the highway they are NO better than our cars.
I get WAY better than what they claim my car to get.
ANyone here alive in 1971? Do you remember the datsun honey bee? It was rated for 41mpg. Now 16 years later our cars are just getting that goood again. WHats the deal here. It's all bs and there is nothting we can do about it.

...
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Old 02-24-2007, 01:19 PM   #6
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sl2clone View Post
ANyone here alive in 1971? Do you remember the datsun honey bee? It was rated for 41mpg. Now 16 years later our cars are just getting that goood again. WHats the deal here. It's all bs and there is nothting we can do about it.
I was driving in 71 and well before that to. Back then there was no emission controls to speak of and there was still wide use of high octane fuel and 87 octane unleaded was just being developed. Cars had high compression and no spark trickery to tolerate low octane fuels which silents steal MPG too. I remember buying real premium back then and you knew who the penny pincher were when their car knocked and rattled away from stops.

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Old 02-24-2007, 02:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sl2clone View Post
ANyone here alive in 1971? Do you remember the datsun honey bee? It was rated for 41mpg. Now 16 years later our cars are just getting that goood again.
1971 - the year I graduated from college!

weight is a big part of it
I'll guess the Honey Bee weighed 2000 lbs or less
no 5mph bumpers, air bags, crash resistant structure, miles of copper wire, etc

I looked up an 07 Honda Civic coupe, which is on the small end these days, curb weight = 2880 lbs
The Scion coupe, another roller skate comes in at 2905

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Old 02-25-2007, 12:37 AM   #8
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

The scion and the civic both weigh more than our cars.
ANy clue how much the prius with all of the batteries?

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Old 02-25-2007, 01:12 AM   #9
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

That was interesting. I was looking at a Corolla in the comparable price range/year of my car and now there is not much difference. All the ones I saw had the 3-speed transmission, which does not help with highway mileage. Makes me even a more satisfied Saturn owner. Apart from stop-n-go constant running the AC during the hot months, I am able to beat those numbers.

I remember the Honey Bee. The hubcaps had a honeycomb look to them if I am not mistaken. It is sad that that the S-Series replacement went backwards in fuel economy, when Toyota Corolla and Civic moved up a notch. It just makes me want to look at those cars when my S-Car wears out.

I also remember the first Honda Civic. It looked more like a toy car. Our wrestling team's assistant coach had one. It was picked up by a bunch of guys and hidden on more than one occasion.

...
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Old 02-25-2007, 03:44 AM   #10
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

I was bragging to a friend of a friend today about getting almost 43 mpg driving to LA from Sacramento when he pwned me good

He drives a 91 Geo Metro LSi (little four door with a 3 cylinder!)
He bought it with 220,000 miles, now has 321,000 (i checked, he wasn't lying).
Its had the tranny replaced, and the gaskets and various sensors, but the motor is 100% stock.

Anywhoo...he gets a LOW of about 43mpg. the highest he's claimed to have gotten is nearly 50mpg.

Makes my 43 in the SL1 seem weak

...although, it does make the SL1 seem like a boat and a luxury car compared to it. If you ever think Saturns are slow and loud, drive one of those Geos for a weekend in LA...The Saturn felt like a Lincoln Town Car to me!

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Old 02-25-2007, 11:35 PM   #11
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

Not to be the skeptic here but I'm guessing they are lowering the numbers because the new fuel formulations aren't as good so it's not possible to achieve those numbers any more. I don't think the car companies were lying. I used to achieve those numbers before but with the reformulated fuels it's much more difficult. The exceptions would be the hybrids which didn't exist before, so they designed them to look the best for the EPA numbers.

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Old 02-26-2007, 03:51 AM   #12
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

I also noticed that the Civic hybrid and Insite got killed in MPG as well, which is good to see in my opinion.

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Old 02-26-2007, 10:17 AM   #13
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

The big issue is making the test reflect real driving. Things like using A/C and heat for example were not factored in the originaltests, nor were realistic driving profiles and speeds.

The Prius for example dropped from 60 to 48 MPG city and 51 to 45 highway. Not bad, just not magic any more and probably not worth the substantial extra cost if you remove the tax and carpool lane incentives. Based on current gas prices, the annual savings vis-a-vis a S-series are probably substntially less than $300 a year for most drivers.

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Old 02-26-2007, 12:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

One of the advantages the hybrids had was they could start the test on a fully charged battery and deplete it some during the cycle. Not sure if that is still the case or not.

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Old 02-28-2007, 11:49 AM   #15
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

The 1996 Saturn SL2 got dropped from 24 city, 34 highway to 21/31. Interestingly, my mileage pretty much matches the old "inaccurate" numbers - 24/34 - even after 11 years and 91,000 miles. I don't exceed 65 mph on the highway but even with the cold weather and a LOT of starting and stopping, I still get around 24 mpg around town.

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Old 02-28-2007, 12:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

Quote:
Originally Posted by westwind999 View Post
Not to be the skeptic here but I'm guessing they are lowering the numbers because the new fuel formulations aren't as good so it's not possible to achieve those numbers any more....
They updated their model because Americans are too stupid to understand a simple explanation.

The figures were only to compare one car against another. Even the new test won't change that. The one car that got 35 mpg on the highway when compared to another that got 30 mpg will still be better.

There will still be morons who drive in LA or NYC traffic complaining that their car doesn't achieve the EPA estimate.

They should have updated their test loop long ago so that a reasonable and educated public would have a better picture of the efficiency of a considered vehicle.

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Old 02-28-2007, 01:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

If a manufacturer makes a "base model" car without air conditioning and gets a rating, what's to stop them from applying that rating to all their cars with "optional" AC? Or port-installed or dealer-installed AC? For all we know a loophole could form where a car comes "AC ready" from the factory with the compressor, condensor, etc worthy of one favorable MPG rating and the dealer adds a fuse and it's good to go.

90s cars and before have the best MPG because running lean causes NOx which are now regulated much more tightly. IMO there should be leniency towards NOx if CO2 (eg fuel consumption) is below a certain point. This would also help diesel cars to become worthwhile.

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Old 02-28-2007, 06:38 PM   #18
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97saturnsl1 View Post
I was bragging to a friend of a friend today about getting almost 43 mpg driving to LA from Sacramento when he pwned me good

He drives a 91 Geo Metro LSi (little four door with a 3 cylinder!)
He bought it with 220,000 miles, now has 321,000 (i checked, he wasn't lying).
Its had the tranny replaced, and the gaskets and various sensors, but the motor is 100% stock.

Anywhoo...he gets a LOW of about 43mpg. the highest he's claimed to have gotten is nearly 50mpg.

Makes my 43 in the SL1 seem weak

...although, it does make the SL1 seem like a boat and a luxury car compared to it. If you ever think Saturns are slow and loud, drive one of those Geos for a weekend in LA...The Saturn felt like a Lincoln Town Car to me!

Being a former Metro owner, I know the feeling. I still think of my SL1 as a big car.

The Metro only got 16 km/L (38 MPG) when I pushed it to 120 km/h though, and the SL1 gets a little over 15 km/L (36 MPG) at the same speed.

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Old 02-28-2007, 06:45 PM   #19
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljefino View Post
If a manufacturer makes a "base model" car without air conditioning and gets a rating, what's to stop them from applying that rating to all their cars with "optional" AC? Or port-installed or dealer-installed AC? For all we know a loophole could form where a car comes "AC ready" from the factory with the compressor, condensor, etc worthy of one favorable MPG rating and the dealer adds a fuse and it's good to go.

90s cars and before have the best MPG because running lean causes NOx which are now regulated much more tightly. IMO there should be leniency towards NOx if CO2 (eg fuel consumption) is below a certain point. This would also help diesel cars to become worthwhile.
Is the A/C turned on when the tests are done? If not it doesn't really matter.

As for NOx, the reaction 2 NO2 --> N2 + 2 O2 is thermodynamically favorable, so hopefully there will soon be an NOx decomposition catalyst available. That would go a long way towards cleaning up diesel and lean running gasoline engines.

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Old 03-01-2007, 08:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: New EPA MPG calculator...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post

As for NOx, the reaction 2 NO2 --> N2 + 2 O2 is thermodynamically favorable, so hopefully there will soon be an NOx decomposition catalyst available. That would go a long way towards cleaning up diesel and lean running gasoline engines.
That remains to be seen and also diesesl are very big NOx generators compared to gas motors and their future is uncertain at best.

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