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Old 09-26-2006, 06:34 PM   #1
guitar_stitch
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1996 SL2
Default Is it time to say Goodbye?

Love my Saturn. Don't get me wrong here. This thing has been in at least one wreck (very recently) and has been broken into. It has saved me countless dollars in fuel and maintenance, due to its easy to service design. However, there comes a point in every car's lifespan where the owner has to assess whether the vehicle is worth repairing. Lemme Elaborate:

1998 Saturn SL2
130K Miles
5sp Transmission

I bought the car with a mere 110K on it, and even then it was in poor shape... oil everywhere and running rough. I needed a car, and this had AC. I found this site and gained the confidence to get under the hood and fix it up. $150 and 3 months later, this car was perfect. I loved it! 32mpg with the AC... Couldn't bear the thought of selling it. Kept it well maintained... regular oil changes, spark plugs, air filters... Fast forward to this past month.

Developed a small leak in a radiator hose from rubbing against the air intake box. No biggie, right? Replaced both hoses and the T-Stat and went on with life. MPG went up to 34. Have been noticing a clunking sound in the front going over bumps, and a floating sensation on the Interstate. A quick search on here confirmed my initial suspicion that the struts were bad. Ok.. I take it in for a quote on that, and end up with a total car inspection. I watch every phase of this inspection because I never fully trust anyone around my car. Results of the inspection?

Needs 4 struts, and new back brakes, shoes, hardware, and wheel cylinders (leaking under the boot, and heading towards failure).

I replaced everything on the back brakes, cleaned it up, and put it back together. Brakes work great and all seems quiet.... for a week. Last Friday, I notice a shuddering and a slight hesitation... Being the maintenance freak I am, I popped the hood and pulled the plugs. They seemed really clean and the gaps were almost perfect. (As a force of habit, I change my plugs and wires annually.) Odd... I got up Saturday and did a mini seafoam treatment. Since I'm light on the throttle, there's a good chance of carbon build up. 1oz in every cylinder, then I draped a rag over the motor and let it sit. I came back and turned the motor over to blow out any left over seafoam, put the plugs back in, and took her for a vigorous drive. LOTS of smoke, but felt great.... 10 miles of driving at 65 MPH, I headed back to the house. When I pulled up to the house I could hear the transmission chatter that I've always heard, but I now hear a slight ticking.... Over the past few days the ticking has gotten much worse. When cold, it actually sounds like a knock.

I'll sum it up here:

Ticking in the front of the motor just above the crank. I'm figuring Timing Chain is going. Quickly.
Very distinct knock/chatter pattern with the clutch pedal depressed. Throwout bearing?
Constant transmission chatter under any load. Light chatter in neutral with the clutch released.
Struts are shot.

I love the Saturn and the feature set I have. I haven't seen one like it for sale here in Jacksonville. (RKE, PW, PL, 5Sp, CC) I can't stand the automatic transmission in anything... I hate to throw in the towel on this car, but with so much major stuff wrong with it (I didn't go into the minor annoyances), is it time to cut my losses?

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Old 09-26-2006, 06:45 PM   #2
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1994 SL1
Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar_stitch
Love my Saturn. Don't get me wrong here. This thing has been in at least one wreck (very recently) and has been broken into. It has saved me countless dollars in fuel and maintenance, due to its easy to service design. However, there comes a point in every car's lifespan where the owner has to assess whether the vehicle is worth repairing. Lemme Elaborate:

1998 Saturn SL2
130K Miles
5sp Transmission

I bought the car with a mere 110K on it, and even then it was in poor shape... oil everywhere and running rough. I needed a car, and this had AC. I found this site and gained the confidence to get under the hood and fix it up. $150 and 3 months later, this car was perfect. I loved it! 32mpg with the AC... Couldn't bear the thought of selling it. Kept it well maintained... regular oil changes, spark plugs, air filters... Fast forward to this past month.

Developed a small leak in a radiator hose from rubbing against the air intake box. No biggie, right? Replaced both hoses and the T-Stat and went on with life. MPG went up to 34. Have been noticing a clunking sound in the front going over bumps, and a floating sensation on the Interstate. A quick search on here confirmed my initial suspicion that the struts were bad. Ok.. I take it in for a quote on that, and end up with a total car inspection. I watch every phase of this inspection because I never fully trust anyone around my car. Results of the inspection?

Needs 4 struts, and new back brakes, shoes, hardware, and wheel cylinders (leaking under the boot, and heading towards failure).

I replaced everything on the back brakes, cleaned it up, and put it back together. Brakes work great and all seems quiet.... for a week. Last Friday, I notice a shuddering and a slight hesitation... Being the maintenance freak I am, I popped the hood and pulled the plugs. They seemed really clean and the gaps were almost perfect. (As a force of habit, I change my plugs and wires annually.) Odd... I got up Saturday and did a mini seafoam treatment. Since I'm light on the throttle, there's a good chance of carbon build up. 1oz in every cylinder, then I draped a rag over the motor and let it sit. I came back and turned the motor over to blow out any left over seafoam, put the plugs back in, and took her for a vigorous drive. LOTS of smoke, but felt great.... 10 miles of driving at 65 MPH, I headed back to the house. When I pulled up to the house I could hear the transmission chatter that I've always heard, but I now hear a slight ticking.... Over the past few days the ticking has gotten much worse. When cold, it actually sounds like a knock.

I'll sum it up here:

Ticking in the front of the motor just above the crank. I'm figuring Timing Chain is going. Quickly.
Very distinct knock/chatter pattern with the clutch pedal depressed. Throwout bearing?
Constant transmission chatter under any load. Light chatter in neutral with the clutch released.
Struts are shot.

I love the Saturn and the feature set I have. I haven't seen one like it for sale here in Jacksonville. (RKE, PW, PL, 5Sp, CC) I can't stand the automatic transmission in anything... I hate to throw in the towel on this car, but with so much major stuff wrong with it (I didn't go into the minor annoyances), is it time to cut my losses?
if that were me, i would buy another car. You can get them pretty cheap.

...
Current:
1998 SL2 Auto issues 112K
1995 Eagle Vision 3.5L TSI 117K
Past:
98 SL1 254k miles Valves Burnt.
94 SL2 125K miles Diff Pin Blew!
94 SL1 Sold @134K.

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Old 09-27-2006, 09:43 AM   #3
JS593
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1992 SL1
Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

almost sounds like it doesnt have the timing set properly... sometimes when it doesnt line up, you tend to have cluth issues... other thing might be internal... ticking could designate a rod hitting the block, or a cam... not sure what it would be in this situation..

...
92 SL1 SOHC TBI
Custom intake
Alpine deck, speakers, amp
JBL Sub
Ultimate amp
Volometer gauge mounted in dash
Magnaflow exhaust
....DEAD.... Car towed away Jan 18 2007. RIP

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Old 09-27-2006, 02:50 PM   #4
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1996 SL2
Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

It is possible that it could've jumped time. I don't think I'm ready to give up on it quite yet, although this beast is really trying my patience recently...

After pricing out what another Saturn with similar features would cost, then comparing it to the cost of the parts... Fixing this with all the problems is still cheaper.

Now, as for it trying my patience... I have no choice but to drive it, so I'm driving it very lightly. I took it to go get some lunch today and I get caught in stop and go traffic. I'll spare you all the details, but the cooling fan motor died. (Yes, the AC works, and no the fan doesn't com on when it's on. I did swap the relay with the AC relay, then jumped straight to the battery for further confirmation. The new motor was only $25, so I'll be able to replace that tonight when I get home from work.) I did get pulled over and shut her down before the temp gauge pegged out, but it's these little things that make me question my decision to fix this thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JS593
almost sounds like it doesnt have the timing set properly... sometimes when it doesnt line up, you tend to have cluth issues... other thing might be internal... ticking could designate a rod hitting the block, or a cam... not sure what it would be in this situation..
I doubt it's a rod. I think a rod noise or a cam noise would be a lot more gradual in the development. Certainly more than a weekend. I did check the cams when I did the valve cover, and they're well within spec. As for the clutch, do you think a jumped timing would cause a tapping sensation when a moderate pressure is applied to the pedal? I have a bad habit of not taking my foot off the clutch, and if I rest my foot on the pedal, I can feel a tapping...

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Old 09-27-2006, 04:29 PM   #5
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1996 SL2
Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

I just finished the cooling fan motor. Luckily I didn't damage anything else with the overheating. I caught it well in time to prevent head gasket/block damage. I think I'll move forward cautiously with the timing chain replacement.... First stop, the 'how to' threads.

Any special tips for me on the TC? I think it might have slightly jumped time, as it is missing quite a bit at idle and popping in the muffler when I decelerate with the clutch engaged.

From what I can tell, the hardest part is going to be removing the crank pulley...

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Old 09-27-2006, 05:15 PM   #6
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1998 SL2
Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

Here's a How-To for getting the crankshaft pulley off. Take your pick from a variety of ways. The next time I need to do it, I'm going to use the starter to knock it off. Once you get the bolt out, the pulley will pull of by hand. Get a Chilton's manual if you don't already have one. The pictures will be invaluable. There's no gasket on the cover just RTV. So, you'll have to pry it off. Make sure all the bolts are out before you do. When you take loose the power steering pump there's one bolt you have to take loose through a hole in the pulley. When you're ready to put the cover back on do a couple dry runs before you put on the RTV. It's a little tricky and you don't want to spread RTV over everything. Get the timing set from Saturn not after market. There is a real difference in quality.

...
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

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Old 09-27-2006, 05:49 PM   #7
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1996 SL2
Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

Yeah, I found your most EXCELLENT guide to pulley removal. I think I have everything I need to do this now... Here's to saving another beautiful SL from the junkyard!

I'll start this project Saturday. The ticking and knocking sounds aren't too terribly bad, so I'll just drive it really lightly until I can get this done!

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Old 09-30-2006, 08:00 PM   #8
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1996 SL2
Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

I'm ready to give up.

I just finished replacing all the stuff and putting the engine back together... now the god damn oil light is on. I thought it might just be it needing to prime, but I guessed wrong apparently.

When removing the TC cover, I managed to break it. I borrowed a vehicle and went to Saturn to get the new cover, as well as a replacedment VC gasket. I transferred the oil pump gears over, attached the cover, and continued re-assembling it. When I fired it up, it sounded great at first. I let it continue to warm up while I packed up tools. I noticed engine noises that started getting louder, so I went to the dash. I noticed the oil light was on, so I shut 'er down.

WHAT DID I DO WRONG?

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Old 09-30-2006, 08:07 PM   #9
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1992 SL1
Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

You didnt mention about putting oil in... did you check your oil on your dipstick. ( i know its a dumbass question, but i managed to do it after removing my oil pan haha... just about forgot to put the oil in... good thing i didnt fire it up.)

...
92 SL1 SOHC TBI
Custom intake
Alpine deck, speakers, amp
JBL Sub
Ultimate amp
Volometer gauge mounted in dash
Magnaflow exhaust
....DEAD.... Car towed away Jan 18 2007. RIP

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Old 09-30-2006, 08:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

Seems you do have a decent car....and good S-series are getting hard to find with all the punk teens abusing the crap out of them. I'd say hold on to it as long as possible. I constantly get on my friend that drives a Honda about regular oil changes because he seems to forget about them and how important they are. I even told him, let me teach you how to change yer own oil. He's a few years younger than me, but then again, he drives a Honda and just likes to stunt with it and doesn't know hardly anything about cars.....the same guy that I laughed at when he asked where do spark plugs go, LOL.

I know Sexy has cost me money, but with all that money he's gotten much better, and I'm never letting go....or shall I say "until death do us part".

...
R.I.P. - My 1996 Saturn SL2, "Psycho" - 7/95-2/17/06

R.I.P. - My 2000 Saturn SL2, "Sexy" - 11/24/99-8/05/08

If you're a car begging for your life, wouldn't you want someone to add fluids?

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Old 09-30-2006, 08:27 PM   #11
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1996 SL2
Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

Yes, it's full of oil. I don't know what I could've missed... Guess I have no choice but to pull it apart again tomorrow... *sighs* I'm really getting tired of working on this thing.

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Old 09-30-2006, 08:40 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

Looking at my Chilton manual,I see that the oil pump is mounted on the inside of the timing cover.I wonder if the oil pump is dry and needs to be primed?

...
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Old 09-30-2006, 08:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

I dunno... I suppose that's possible. Is there a way to prime it without pulling the Timing Chain cover again? I do know that oil came out of the crank when I pulled that bolt..... I wonder if I could possibly backfeed oil through the filter pipe?

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Old 09-30-2006, 08:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

I just had another thought... when you buy a Timing Chain cover from the Saturn dealership... does it come with that pressure release valve? I know that I didn't transfer one over, and I can't remember if there was one in there or not.

Also, I know I didn't prime it, so that might be my problem too...

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Old 09-30-2006, 09:01 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

If you had to transfer the oil pump then Im going to say that you should have transfered the relief valve too.Im pretty sure they dont come with the relief valve.Your going to have to take the timing cover off again.When you have the cover off,pack the oil pump with Vaseline or white lithium grease.

...
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Old 09-30-2006, 09:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

In looking at the old cover, I can't see a way to extract the Pressure Release valve. Any suggestions?

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Old 09-30-2006, 09:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...l+pump+removal

Maybe this will help you out on how to remove the relief valve

...
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Old 10-01-2006, 12:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

If your leaving then leave................by now, see ya, have a good day.

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Old 10-01-2006, 01:07 PM   #19
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1996 SL2
Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

I'm not leaving here for sure. The goodbye would be to my Saturn, not the Saturn line. I'm GOING to get another Saturn if this one dies.

However, I don't think that's the case. Quick update!

I primed the pump. No luck. Pulled the timing chain cover, realized I forgot that little valve. Extracted the valve from the other cover, installed it in this cover, remounted the cover and took a break, which is where I'm at now. Oh yeah, I filled the oil pump assembly up... Cross your fingers!

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Old 10-01-2006, 03:01 PM   #20
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Default Re: Is it time to say Goodbye?

Good News! I got the oil pump working, car back together, and took it for a test drive. I now have more power, and slightly less noise. I do have some other noise, which is probably damage due to running it with the pump not working. I'll drive it until the noise gets worse, then drop the pan and R&R the bearings. I'm so glad I was able to get her running without seizing the engine or breaking anything major... except for the timing chain cover but that's a different story...

Summary:
Still need Struts.
Engine is running better.
Need to R&R throwout bearing.
Hate making stupid mistakes.
I'll be keeping this car for quite a while longer...

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