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Old 01-01-2020, 11:42 PM   #21
billr
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Lolly_Poppins,

Quick, check your PM while this site is up again!

Edit: It doesn't seem like the PM is working. Go to <batauto.com> and look for me there (billr) if this site is down right when you are in the midst of this project and need help.

Last edited by billr; 01-01-2020 at 11:51 PM..

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Old 01-03-2020, 11:39 AM   #22
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolly_Poppins View Post
So in regard to the compression test, I wanted to mention real quick that it was really obvious that #3 was different from the other just from how it sounded when turning the ignition on. So I think it is what we're thinking but will definitely test again.
Still couldn't get any pictures to upload but will be trying again and will answer your other questions
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you need to post 10 times before you are able to post pictures.

Once that is sorted, looking forward to seeing your car getting sorted!

...
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Old 01-03-2020, 12:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLfun View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you need to post 10 times before you are able to post pictures.

Once that is sorted, looking forward to seeing your car getting sorted!
Ah, didn't see the post count. It's actually 15 posts. That explains that.

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Old 01-03-2020, 01:08 PM   #24
Lolly_Poppins
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Dizzy Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

OK, so no pictures. I have been laid up with a migraine so I apologize for the lateness on a reply.
So, anyway, i am planning on getting the head from a junkyard. I have been waiting to hear back from one place the pulls the parts for you but no reply yet. I'll look around some more on that but then it'll be off to the junkyard myself I suppose.
As far as I know the Valve cover is the OEM one but I feel like it was aluminum. I could be totally wrong and will verify shortly.
I will get the leak down tester ordered today.
First extension is up on the 7th, i won't have help until the 6th. So I'll be starting this weekend with whatever i can. I got my fresh bottle of PB Blaster and I figure I'll clean the engine while I'm at it since I have an oil leak I still need to figure out where its coming from. I will take lots of pictures. I will also run the compression test again today or partially anyway.

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Old 01-03-2020, 01:27 PM   #25
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

New members can post snapshots since a few have done so. How? They attached images with small file size. Virtually all digital cameras and cellphones create images with very large file sizes well over a few megabytes, the reason they're not accepted due to large file size. 150 kilobytes is the limit for each image file. A few new members posted their snapshots when they had less than the 15 posts.

Using Windows Paint or similar image handler to resize high resolution images into a smaller file size is the answer. I've experimented with file size. In jpeg format, images around a megabyte are accepted. Upon acceptance, they're reduced further. None are degraded insofar as quality as many can be enlarged with clarity. For whatever reason, the demand for very high resolution images from digital cameras and cellphones drove the industry into creating ccd matrices creating extremely high res images resulting in very large file sizes. Far too high for public message boards viewing a greasy valve cover, dissection of an oil filler or what broke in a Vue cvt. To borrow a phrase, we don't need no stinkin' humongous file sized images on Saturnfans. This reduces overhead memory to store images. Charlie was wise about limiting image size.....

Resize images to less then a megabyte in jpeg format and anyone, including new members, can attach snapshots.

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Old 01-03-2020, 02:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

I have seen the picture of the exhaust hole. It is, indeed, in the flex-pipe and is far larger than "a pin hole".

The oil leak may well be from the valve cover, if it is plastic. If the OP is going to have to pull a head out of a JY, I strongly suggest getting it off a donor that has an aluminum VC and taking that too... Also, it is much easier to add oil with the aluminum VC.

A few considerations when shopping for a u-pull head:

1) Don't even think about getting a SOHC head, too much else to change to make that work in place of your DOHC.

2) Years that can work are about '93-'98, but there is a "sticky" thread at the top of this forum that details that.

3) A '95 will be you first choice, as that will have the correct EGR mount and the aluminum VC.

4) Be sure to get the screws that fasten the VC to the head, those are slightly different than the ones for the plastic VC.

5) You won't be able to crank the donor engine in the JY to check compression, so I'm thinking you could take in a foot-operated tire pump and that leak-down tester to get some clue as to whether the head you are going to pull is OK. Once the head is off, any type head, just turn it upside-down and fill the chamber "bowls" with paint thinner. The chamber should remain nearly full for 15 minutes, at least. That could be done in the JY, but I would do the leak-down before even taking the head off.

6) Taking your old stuff apart ahead of time will give you experience in the process, in the comfort of your own home. Any work in a JY is more difficult/miserable, and you want to minimize the time spent there!

Also, you will get a chance to inspect some parts that may not be in the best of shape, and be prepared to get those, too, from the JY. Things like timing cover, timing chain, chain sprockets, engine mounts, belt idler/tensioner. Those miscellaneous items can often be "included" with the head for little-to-no additional cost. I consider the aluminum VC to be a "must get", even if you do have to pay extra. The spark-plug wires will be slightly different (plastic vs. alum VC), but yours will work fine.

7) If you do not have to find replacements for anything under the timing cover, then that does not have to come off in the JY, a big time-saver! You just remove the cam sprockets, at least one, to get the chain free and the head will come off.

8) Lastly, I would try to get the exhaust manifold off for removing the head, just to make it a bit lighter and more space to horse it around. However, the head can come off with both the exhaust manifold (only) and intake attached. In fact, I suggest leaving the entire intake in place and taking it as "part of the head"; get all the injector/TB/sensor stuff for free spares. And avoid that sweet JY time to remove them. For install of a head, though, I think it would be easier "bare", but that is your call. Putting all back with both intake and exhaust never removed could save time on the re-assemble.

9) Oh, one more "last thing": Don't be surprised if your choices in the JY are much more limited than expected. They may have quite a few Saturns listed, even of the year(s) you would like, but they will probably already have been picked over. Be prepared to compromise on what you can accept, or to move on to another source. That is another reason to get your existing head off and evaluate what your options are to repair it. That may have to be your "Plan B".

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Old 01-03-2020, 06:53 PM   #27
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Red Face Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Amazing information as always! I'm just going to have to study some diagrams and pictures do I know what the heck all these parts look like then I should be set...I hope!
I'll attempt to start disassembling stuff tomorrow. Sounds like my best bet is to spray down nuts and screws with my pb on the pipe then start working on taking apart all the stuff on top.
The leak very well may be coming from the valve cover...I've replaced the gasket 3 times personally but hehe, never have had a torque wrench to properly tighten. I still dont but I'm gonna start asking around to see if I can borrow one. I did verify it is for sure the plastic cover.
Oh man, I'm kinda scared here! I tend to really be quite bad at putting things back together after taking them apart. But I'm taking all advice, take my time, take lots of pictures and do my best to breathe.

...
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:09 PM   #28
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Those plastic VCs warp and leak even if you use a torque wrench.

When you take the head off, I would pull the cams and such off first. Just be sure to organize the parts as removed so you know which cam is which, and which cam-follower (lifter) cam from each hole in the head. If, for some reason, you have to repair and re-use that head, you want to be sure each cam-follower rides on the same cam lobe as before. And, cam bearing caps need to go back in their original location/orientation. Those caps are probably numbered and have an arrow pointing "front", but make sure.

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Old 01-03-2020, 11:29 PM   #29
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Let's see if this works...

Attached is the thumbnail of the OP's flex pipe with a hole in it. The OP would like opinions on whether that hole can be repaired enough to pass smog test.

If you zoom in, the hole is more obvious.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg thumbnail.jpg (76.6 KB, 12 views)

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Old 01-04-2020, 03:15 AM   #30
Lolly_Poppins
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
Those plastic VCs warp and leak even if you use a torque wrench.
.
That makes me feel a LOT better about my abilities Thank you

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Old 01-04-2020, 09:33 AM   #31
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

As far as I know the only way to repair the flex portion of the flex pipe is to replace it. They're ~$20 and should take less than an hour for a competent shop with a lift & welder to replace; if it were the solid pipe part then they could simply weld up the hole or weld in a patch piece.

This (just change it to whatever length the stock one is): https://www.amazon.com/Remarkable-Po...dp/B017ALFO52/

The '96-'98 plastic covers are a safe bet that they're warped and you'd be well off finding an aluminum one from a '93-'95, keep the bolts and PVC hose with the cover. You might be able to mask the leak with extra RTV but that'll just make the cover come off in piece's rather than solid once you get a replacement cover.

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Old 01-04-2020, 10:44 AM   #32
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Aluminum valve covers are awesome. Here is the definitive thread on the swap, thanks Saturninin. Unfortunately he was a photobucket user.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=187908

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http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...&postcount=157

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Old 01-04-2020, 12:12 PM   #33
Lolly_Poppins
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

So then lacking a shop, competent or otherwise, replace the whole thing correct?

I've got one other thing to throw out that I was just reminded of. So back last summer when we had to do something, don't remember what, maybe replace the starter....I changed the spark plugs. In doing so, i remember somehow a piece of the gasket maker I had used months before, about the size of maybe a Lima bean, fell into #3. When we were running the compression test recently, my friend mentioned that and wondered if that could have been a possible cause for this. From what I had read, I was under the impression that something that small would be basically chewed up and eaten or somehow spit out by the engine. Hopefully that makes sense lol. Thoughts?

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Old 01-04-2020, 12:41 PM   #34
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

I doubt a chunk of gasket maker would kill the cylinder. Once you pop the head off you will know however.

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Old 01-04-2020, 02:20 PM   #35
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Agreed, I doubt that bit of gasket caused the bad valve/compression. Also agreed, be sure to grab the "Z shaped" hose and PCV valve that goes from the aluminum VC to intake manifold. It, too, is a bit different than the one for the plastic VC. In normal operation I use just a piece of standard hose to make that 180 degree bend, but I always throw the stock one on at smog-test time. It is best that the inspector not see anything non-stock looking!

If you go for a '95 or earlier head you will see that there is an "extra" ECT sensor on it. No problem, just leave it there with no electrical connections or replace it with a 1/8" pipe plug.

I hate to say it, but the cause of the valve problem may have been that leak in the exhaust flex. That may have thrown the fuel trims off enough to burn the valve. And, I fear it may have damaged the cat. Since cats don't last forever anyway, I think the chances of you needing a cat are pretty high.

PS: no salt on the roads in CO?

Last edited by billr; 01-04-2020 at 02:25 PM..

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Old 01-04-2020, 04:01 PM   #36
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Compression test findings are the same wet compression has no change

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Old 01-05-2020, 03:07 PM   #37
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Default Re: Cylinder 3 misfire & Fuel in Oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post

I hate to say it, but the cause of the valve problem may have been that leak in the exhaust flex. That may have thrown the fuel trims off enough to burn the valve.
That's what I was thinking. I recall Oldnuc mentioning this a few times....

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