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Old 11-14-2008, 07:13 PM   #1
sat-vic
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Default 92 sc failed emission on hc

After rebuilding the engine and replacing most of the emission related parts hydro carbon is still slightly to high
car jerks a little bit when i get on or off the gass -the higher the gear the less

anybody any suggestions?

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Old 11-14-2008, 09:28 PM   #2
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

One major part to immediately replace is the two-wire engine coolant sensor as this alone can cause major emissions inspection failures from running rich with the original one. The replacement is the brass one from any auto store stocking it. The engine must run as lean as possible (ideal 14:1 a/f ratio) before the O2 sensor can read the exhaust and fine tune the a/f mixture on-the-fly. You also have an older style vacuum operated egr valve? This may be interfering with emissions and either this, the egr solenoid, or the vacuum lines are faulty.

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Old 11-14-2008, 09:35 PM   #3
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
One major part to immediately replace is the two-wire engine coolant sensor as this alone can cause major emissions inspection failures from running rich with the original one. The replacement is the brass one from any auto store stocking it. The engine must run as lean as possible (ideal 14:1 a/f ratio) before the O2 sensor can read the exhaust and fine tune the a/f mixture on-the-fly. You also have an older style vacuum operated egr valve? This may be interfering with emissions and either this, the egr solenoid, or the vacuum lines are faulty.
coolant sensor is replaced, egr valve and solenoid less than a year old

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Old 11-14-2008, 09:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

Ok, then what hasn't been replaced so we don't have to play 'twenty questions'?

Has the coolant sensor connector been checked for corrosion? A fouled one does the same as not replacing the ects. In other words does the engine idle cold at 1200rpms and gradually return to 800-900rpm after 10-minutes or so? This is a normal dynamic ects interaction to control air/fuel mixtures.

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Last edited by fdryer; 11-14-2008 at 10:05 PM..

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Old 11-14-2008, 10:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Ok, then what hasn't been replaced so we don't have to play 'twenty questions'?

Has the coolant sensor connector been checked for corrosion? A fouled one does the same as not replacing the ects. In other words does the engine idle cold at 1200rpms and gradually return to 800-900rpm after 10-minutes or so? This is a normal dynamic ects interaction to control air/fuel mixtures.
Idle seems to be ok
I also replaced plugs and pcv valve -wires les than a year old
intake vacuum measured at the power brake nozzle with the brake hose off tested good
fuel pressure tested good
I changed the piston rings replaced two valves and a spring tapped all valves, replaced the gaskets
compression between 181 and 188 psi
just got a new cat but the car isn't tested with the new cat
cat didn't change the jerking

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Old 11-14-2008, 11:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

OK, now for the fun (confusing?) part.

1-Fuel pressure must be closer to 35psi (engine running) as any higher will cause automatic fuel enrichment. Thats the job of the pressure regulator and if you have the older carburetor-style single injector, there's a single diaphragm regulator to replace if necessary. The dohc uses multiple injectors so the regulator is separate from the throttle body. A rupture in this regulator can have extra fuel being sucked in the vacuum line back to the intake manifold to mistakenly enrich the fuel mixtures. Smell the vacuum line or inspect for raw fuel.

2-The old O2 sensor may be worn out and worth replacing if its the original and its got over 100k miles on it. It may be sluggish and not reacting enough to keep the air/fuel mixtures as close to stoichiometric (14.7:1) as possible.

I'm not sure but I think your emissions test is with a the anal probe in the exhaust pipe? If so then the catcon may have to be replaced (if older than 150k miles+) in order for a cleaner exhaust as measured by the sniffer. This takes into account what controls the air/fuel mixture before combustion and afterwards when the O2 sensor sniffs the exhaust before it enters the catcon. So methodically going from before the air fuel mixture is burned to having the O2 sensor tell the PCM to fine tune the a/f ratio complicates which way to troubleshoot but going over each sensor carefully should help isolate and eliminate one issue after another until your car smells sweet again (the EPA posse). Easy to write, harder to figure out....................

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Old 11-14-2008, 11:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
OK, now for the fun (confusing?) part.

1-Fuel pressure must be closer to 35psi (engine running) as any higher will cause automatic fuel enrichment. Thats the job of the pressure regulator and if you have the older carburetor-style single injector, there's a single diaphragm regulator to replace if necessary. The dohc uses multiple injectors so the regulator is separate from the throttle body. A rupture in this regulator can have extra fuel being sucked in the vacuum line back to the intake manifold to mistakenly enrich the fuel mixtures. Smell the vacuum line or inspect for raw fuel.

2-The old O2 sensor may be worn out and worth replacing if its the original and its got over 100k miles on it. It may be sluggish and not reacting enough to keep the air/fuel mixtures as close to stoichiometric (14.7:1) as possible.

I'm not sure but I think your emissions test is with a the anal probe in the exhaust pipe? If so then the catcon may have to be replaced (if older than 150k miles+) in order for a cleaner exhaust as measured by the sniffer. This takes into account what controls the air/fuel mixture before combustion and afterwards when the O2 sensor sniffs the exhaust before it enters the catcon. So methodically going from before the air fuel mixture is burned to having the O2 sensor tell the PCM to fine tune the a/f ratio complicates which way to troubleshoot but going over each sensor carefully should help isolate and eliminate one issue after another until your car smells sweet again (the EPA posse). Easy to write, harder to figure out....................

Fuel pressure measured 35 psi with regulator vacuum hose attached -42 psi with hose off
O2 sensor is new -sorry i forgot to mention- but was exposed to a lot of carbon before i rebuild the engine and later when coolant sensor got diconnected
emission is tested through exhaust pipe
how much can the IAT efect hc?

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Old 11-14-2008, 11:56 PM   #8
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

Normally the iat doesn't fail but it must operate just the same as the coolant sensor. To put it another way, there are so-called 'chips' for performance enhancing that's nothing more than a resistor to splice into the iat wiring to force the PCM into enriching the a/f mixture. Short term boost but ineffective overall. The iat must simply be in working condition as it also affects the a/f ratio. The opposite of the above 'performance' enhancing resistor is another resistor to splice into the iat wiring that leans out the a/f mixture for actual gains in fuel mileage. So the iat sensor must operate as is. Both sensors can be tested on a bench with a mulitmeter measuring resistance and heating or cooling the sensor while monitoring the meter. As temps rise the resistance drops and as temps drops, resistance rises exponentially.

The new O2 sensor should be OK as is.

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Old 11-15-2008, 12:25 AM   #9
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Normally the iat doesn't fail but it must operate just the same as the coolant sensor. To put it another way, there are so-called 'chips' for performance enhancing that's nothing more than a resistor to splice into the iat wiring to force the PCM into enriching the a/f mixture. Short term boost but ineffective overall. The iat must simply be in working condition as it also affects the a/f ratio. The opposite of the above 'performance' enhancing resistor is another resistor to splice into the iat wiring that leans out the a/f mixture for actual gains in fuel mileage. So the iat sensor must operate as is. Both sensors can be tested on a bench with a mulitmeter measuring resistance and heating or cooling the sensor while monitoring the meter. As temps rise the resistance drops and as temps drops, resistance rises exponentially.

The new O2 sensor should be OK as is.
Is there any way to tell if the a/f ratio is to rich or to lean
looking at the last two test reports it should be lean cause the Hc went up little while CO and NOx went down
When i look at the a/f ratio graph from autoshop101.com that means the ratio is lean -if i read the graph right -its a little bit inconclusive cause i get all readings in gpm but the tendency should be the same

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Old 11-15-2008, 01:45 AM   #10
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

Google 'O2 sensor operation' and read how it works to fine tune the a/f ratio as long as everything is in working order. Using a digital multimeter to measure/monitor the output signals from the O2 sensor may help as you'll read the fluctuating voltage signals vary quickly between 0.1v to 0.9v, with ideal a/f ratios reading between 0.4-0.6v. One voltage is rich while the other is lean. The textbook explanation covers it. Then you'll have to wrestle with almost every sensor and how it affects overall engine operations as well as interpreting the HC's, CO's, and NOx's. To confuse you some more you can read by searching the threads about 'high HC levels', 'failed emissions', 'HC' levels, etc., to thoroughly discourage any attempts to figure out what's wrong. But if you suddenly become more knowledgeable you'll figure out what went wrong and why. Not everything is in black and white as explanations goes but the more you know the more you'll develop a feel for which way to look. Keep in mind how open loop works during a cold start-up and transitioning to closed loop mode when the O2 sensor becomes the feedback sensor to tightly control engine operations while all the sensors are contributing to overall engine running. There's quite a bit involved with electronic fuel injection.

HC levels going up is generally a sign of a rich mixture while lean is lowered HC numbers. More gas = more HC's and vice versa.

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Old 11-16-2008, 10:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Google 'O2 sensor operation' and read how it works to fine tune the a/f ratio as long as everything is in working order. Using a digital multimeter to measure/monitor the output signals from the O2 sensor may help as you'll read the fluctuating voltage signals vary quickly between 0.1v to 0.9v, with ideal a/f ratios reading between 0.4-0.6v. One voltage is rich while the other is lean. The textbook explanation covers it. Then you'll have to wrestle with almost every sensor and how it affects overall engine operations as well as interpreting the HC's, CO's, and NOx's. To confuse you some more you can read by searching the threads about 'high HC levels', 'failed emissions', 'HC' levels, etc., to thoroughly discourage any attempts to figure out what's wrong. But if you suddenly become more knowledgeable you'll figure out what went wrong and why. Not everything is in black and white as explanations goes but the more you know the more you'll develop a feel for which way to look. Keep in mind how open loop works during a cold start-up and transitioning to closed loop mode when the O2 sensor becomes the feedback sensor to tightly control engine operations while all the sensors are contributing to overall engine running. There's quite a bit involved with electronic fuel injection.

HC levels going up is generally a sign of a rich mixture while lean is lowered HC numbers. More gas = more HC's and vice versa.

First off all -thanks for all your effort

searching through the threads was what i did before i posted one myself
most of it was more confusing than helpfull
I got the CAT replaced, put a new fuel filter in and gapped the spark plugs
A little bit less jerking but it is still there
Don't know about HC, wasn't at the test site yet

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Old 11-16-2008, 10:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

The jerking you are feeling could b the EGR leaking through. That is isolated by blocking off a piece with apiece of can.

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Old 11-16-2008, 10:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

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The jerking you are feeling could b the EGR leaking through. That is isolated by blocking off a piece with apiece of can.
Vacuum leak or exhaust gas leak?

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Old 11-16-2008, 11:16 PM   #14
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

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The jerking you are feeling could b the EGR leaking through. That is isolated by blocking off a piece with apiece of can.
Would really suck if its the EGR valve cause i already replaced it less than year for no reason -was the solenoid, but nobody told me that you need a lighter to measure the Ohms

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Old 11-17-2008, 12:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

The vacuum operated valves have a lot of problems. Block it off and see if the problem goes away.

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Old 11-17-2008, 12:25 AM   #16
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

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The vacuum operated valves have a lot of problems. Block it off and see if the problem goes away.
Thanks again -I'll try -as soon it stops snowing

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Old 11-17-2008, 12:32 AM   #17
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

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The vacuum operated valves have a lot of problems. Block it off and see if the problem goes away.
By the way -I hear from a lot of people- no platinum plugs
Why not?

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Old 11-17-2008, 12:48 AM   #18
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

When you did your rebuild did you replace your intake manifold gasket? If so, did you torque it to spec? If it isn't sealed it will cause the engine to run rough.

It is fairly easy to diagnose if the intake manifold is leaking. Take a can of brake cleaner and spray it the length of intake manifold along the seam between the manifold and the head while the engine is idling. Don't be bashful, spray a stream of it along the seam. If the engine smooths out then you need to replace the gasket.

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Old 11-17-2008, 12:54 AM   #19
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

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When you did your rebuild did you replace your intake manifold gasket? If so, did you torque it to spec? If it isn't sealed it will cause the engine to run rough.

It is fairly easy to diagnose if the intake manifold is leaking. Take a can of brake cleaner and spray it the length of intake manifold along the seam between the manifold and the head while the engine is idling. Don't be bashful, spray a stream of it along the seam. If the engine smooths out then you need to replace the gasket.
I replaced the gaskets and torqued the bolts to spec
Shouldn't the intake vacuum be off if the gasket is leaking?

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Old 11-17-2008, 01:11 AM   #20
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Default Re: 92 sc failed emission on hc

I've seen it where the vacuum was fine and the gasket leaked throwing off the air/fuel mixture.

The other areas I would check would be the EGR which I see you are already going to look at. You can remove the ERG and crank the engine. If there is any stuff in there it may force it out. If you rebuilt this engine then you probably cleaned it out so this may be a waste of time. The other would be to see if any of the injectors are leaking. Pull out the fuel rail with the injectors connected from the intake manifold. Put a piece of paper towel under each injector. Turn the key two click so the fuel pump pressurizes but don't start the engine. Check to see if any the injectors are leaking. If any of them are, then there is your problem.

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