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Old 03-11-2019, 09:12 AM   #1
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Default Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Has anyone found a dedicated winter snow tire that is compatible with saw-cut grooves in concrete pavement while moving at 70mph highway speeds?


—————————————————————————————————————————————
Background:
My Blizzak WS70 dedicated winter tires are not directionally-stabile on saw-cut grooves. I am getting ready to buy another set and wondered if there is something that offers winter snow & ice traction, yet is more stable on longitudinally saw-cut concrete pavement at highway speeds.
The Blizzak WS70 tires are stable at all speeds when the pavement is NOT longitudinally saw-cut.

My take is the sipes in the tyres are wrapping around the peaks and valleys in the concrete. This causes the car to jerk side-to-side while traveling parallel with the saw-cut grooves.

Definition of Saw-Cut Grooves in Concrete Pavement:
https://www.equipmentworld.com/diamo...t-performance/

The Car is in good repair and the alignment is just about perfect. The car drives fine on saw-cut pavement when using all-season tires.

Note that the Blizzaks have never been overly stable on saw-cuts. I have used Blizzaks every winter and all winter on this car since it was new in 1998.

The problem is, there are currently saw-cut pavement sections everywhere. It is time to adapt the car’s tires to the roads.

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Old 03-11-2019, 12:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Maybe, after I join the International Grving & Grinding Association (IGGA), their newsletters and social gatherings will have tire compatibility recommendations.

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Last edited by bumpdraft; 03-11-2019 at 12:17 PM..

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Old 03-11-2019, 12:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Investigate Cooper Tires for rain grooved concrete. They developed those tread patterns for rice rockets back in the late 70s and may have expanded the technology to passenger car tires.

The technical term for those grooves in the road is "Rain Grooves".

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Old 03-11-2019, 12:24 PM   #4
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpdraft View Post
Maybe, after I join the International Grving & Grinding Association (IGGA), their newsletters and social gatherings will have tire compatibility recommendations.
Haha, this might not be what you are hoping it is...

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Old 03-11-2019, 12:29 PM   #5
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

My guess is snow tires are formulated with softer tread compound and more sipes to allow better grip on icy slippery surfaces. The eraser like quality of softer tread compounds contribute to working in very low temperatures to maintain the soft tread characteristics. The softer tread probably acts squirmy on grooved roads. Unfortunately, there may be no choice. Either winter tires give advantages in snow and ice conditions and accept the squirmy ride over grooved roads or buy all season tires and give away any advantages snow tires have. Compromises are made with all season tires where dedicated snow tires aren't needed like in NYC where garbage trucks double as snow plows while salt trucks plow and lay salt down to keep the Big Apple open for 24/7 business.

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Old 03-11-2019, 05:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
My guess is snow tires are formulated with softer tread compound and more sipes to allow better grip on icy slippery surfaces. The eraser like quality of softer tread compounds contribute to working in very low temperatures to maintain the soft tread characteristics. The softer tread probably acts squirmy on grooved roads. Unfortunately, there may be no choice. Either winter tires give advantages in snow and ice conditions and accept the squirmy ride over grooved roads or buy all season tires and give away any advantages snow tires have. Compromises are made with all season tires where dedicated snow tires aren't needed like in NYC where garbage trucks double as snow plows while salt trucks plow and lay salt down to keep the Big Apple open for 24/7 business.
It is probably time to adapt my tires to the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Investigate Cooper Tires for rain grooved concrete. They developed those tread patterns for rice rockets back in the late 70s and may have expanded the technology to passenger car tires.

The technical term for those grooves in the road is "Rain Grooves".
The grooves are also for refinishing an existing surface, but it is the narrow rain grooves causing the most squirming. What is different today is, the grooved highway pavement is everywhere. It’s a good thing, just bad for my tires.

When you wrote, Cooper, did you mean dedicated winter?
Meaning, this Cooper:


Could ride rain grooves better than this Blizzak?

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Old 03-11-2019, 05:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Yes, contact Cooper Tire directly and not a seller to inquire about the passenger car winter and rain tire that is least influenced by rain grooves. I ran the Cooper tires on the Harley because I did not care for the squirming while running on the nicely rain grooved interstates. They had a specific anti squirm tread pattern and it worked very well in rain as well.

Cooper has many different tread patterns and compounds. The 185/65R15 is the standard Prius tire size so they are readily available.

Last edited by OldNuc; 03-11-2019 at 05:53 PM..

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Old 03-11-2019, 05:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Yes, contact Cooper Tire directly and not a seller to inquire about the passenger car winter and rain tire that is least influenced by rain grooves. I ran the Cooper tires on the Harley because I did not care for the squirming while running on the nicely rain grooved interstates. They had a specific anti squirm tread pattern and it worked very well in rain as well.

Cooper has many different tread patterns and compounds. The 185/65R15 is the standard Prius tire size so they are readily available.
Good advice! Thanks!
I wondered about motorcycles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colonelhogan44 View Post
Haha, this might not be what you are hoping it is...
I’m picturing a reworking of this for their official logo

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Old 03-11-2019, 06:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

They specifically made them for the motorcycle market and I would suspect they incorporated technology into a line of passenger cat tires.

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Old 03-15-2019, 12:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Yes, contact Cooper Tire directly...
They say there are no stupid questions. Well, evidently, there are stupid questions. I submitted the following:
“Squirming on Longetudinal Saw-Cut Grooves in Concrete Pavement: I am looking for a dedicated winter snow and ice tire in 185/65R15 that will not squirm on grooves in the pavement. Was the design of the Cooper Evolution winter tire done specifically to minimize squirming. As a reference, I have used Blizzak tires in the winter in Michigan since 1998. In Michigan, the trend is towards saw-cut longetudinal grooves and my Blizzaks are not particularly stable on grooves. Has Cooper Tire made a dedicated winter car tire that was designed for stability on longitudinally-grooved concrete pavement? Thank you”

Cooper sent a preliminary E-mail on March 12th.
Thank you for contacting Cooper Tire. We will review your request or comment promptly.
—————————————————————————————————————
End
————————————————————————————-
What I’m going to do:
I noticed that TireRack started recommending 195/60R15 for a dedicated winter tire for the SC2. The alternate is now 185/65R15.
It seems the thing to do is get a set of Cooper in the 195 width and try them.
I will report back if that ever happens.

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Old 03-15-2019, 01:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Call them rain grooves. No one knows what you mean by saw cut without a great deal of thinking --that is asking alot.

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Old 03-15-2019, 02:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Call them rain grooves. No one knows what you mean by saw cut without a great deal of thinking --that is asking alot.
I would, but rain grooves can be transverse. There is no problem (zero, the Empty Set) with transverse grooves or even while changing lanes over longetudinal grooves. Along-the-direction-of-travel rain grooves
Anyway...

Cooper responded:
“Thank you for your email and interest in Cooper Tires. The only dedicated winter tire we make in your size is the Evolution Winter. We do not have a tire (winter or non-winter) specifically designed to not track the grooves of grooved pavement.”
———————
End
———————
Fair enough I doubt anyone addresses this with winter tires. I’m going get a set of Evolutions before next winter. ...and replace the control arms just because they have 15,000 miles on them with 37psi (cold) tires.

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Old 03-15-2019, 03:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Transverse grooves are quite rare. Too bad they do not make a tire for that issue.

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Old 03-17-2019, 06:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

I've been running nokian hakkapeliittas the last couple years and I noticed they have a stiffer sidewall than any other snow tires I've used. I know what your talking about when it comes to the rain grooves. On certain roads that I travel I can tell where I am by the change in the road noise and change in surface. In the last couple years I have't noticed it unless I see when it transitions over to the rain groove. I've had my snows on since Nov 1 and getting ready to switch back. When I would check the air in the tires I've had nails in them but you wouldn't know it by looking. 10 psi looked like 35. There not squishy like others I've ran.

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Old 03-21-2019, 08:52 AM   #15
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturnhusker View Post
I've been running nokian hakkapeliittas the last couple years and I noticed they have a stiffer sidewall than any other snow tires I've used. I know what your talking about when it comes to the rain grooves. On certain roads that I travel I can tell where I am by the change in the road noise and change in surface. In the last couple years I have't noticed it unless I see when it transitions over to the rain groove. I've had my snows on since Nov 1 and getting ready to switch back. When I would check the air in the tires I've had nails in them but you wouldn't know it by looking. 10 psi looked like 35. There not squishy like others I've ran.
The nokian hakkapeliittas look good, but I think they would still squirm on Rain Grooves.
Stiff sidewalls are a negative in the winter on frost heaved pavement

If they’d fit, these look like they might work:
I do not see Rain Grooves mentioned specifically in the specifications or description.

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Old 03-21-2019, 09:05 AM   #16
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

You want a tread patern similar to this: https://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tub...e-tire/p/30387 Also look at the matching rear tire. These are the rain groove proof tires.

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Old 03-21-2019, 11:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

This Kumho tire looks interesting, similar to the Michelin Cross Climate, and available in the 175/70/14 size. I don't see if listed for sale in the US.
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/tires...p.3082977.html

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Old 03-22-2019, 10:06 AM   #18
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturnhusker View Post
I've been running nokian hakkapeliittas the last couple years and I noticed they have a stiffer sidewall than any other snow tires I've used. .
Do you run the studded version?

I use the Hakka R’s (non-studded version) on a 03 Honda and my daughter uses Hakka 7’s (these are studded) on a 98 Saturn and we experience the exact OPPOSITE. They are the softest sidewall I have ever seen (I can dimple them easily with my thumb), I run 32 psi and if it drops 4 psi, they look flat. These ride better than my summer tires!

To the OP... no rain grooves here but what do others in your area run to overcome the issue?

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Old 03-22-2019, 10:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Quote:
Originally Posted by fjmg View Post
...!
To the OP... no rain grooves here but what do others in your area run to overcome the issue?
They don’t All-season tyres work for them. They just drive like they’ve never seen snow. They hang in packs, like lemmings waiting for a tailgating low-front-chromed-bumper 18-wheeler to bump them off a cliff. All-season tyres do not squirm excessively on rain grooves.

The little Saturn** gets buffeted by cars ahead and this starts the squirming on dry rain grooves when running soft knobbies. It is time to adapt the tires to the road....for this particular little car.

**Conversely, when dealing with rain grooves, buffeting, close packs of cars and tailgating semis, my 6000+ pound pickup is a honey badger.

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Old 03-22-2019, 11:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: Dedicated Snow Tires vs. Saw-Cut Grooves

Did you look at how the Conti Twins were configured? The secret is that center rib. Specifically look at the rear tire in that pair. You can find matching patterns in some rain tires. Those chevron pattern tires and going to squirm like a headless snake.

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