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Old 03-11-2019, 01:01 PM   #41
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

^^ thanks OldNuc for this very interesting article/blog.
Author updated it this month and basically confirms what some of us have practiced all along.
Zinc phosphate is not a reliable indicator of really anything.
Changing oil at 5K intervals is best.
Use any brand of oil, dino or synthetic; since there does not seem to be any consistent correlation between any brand named oil product.
They all break down, so change it a lot more often if you desire to save your engine.

Author quote, summing it up:
"I recommend the ideal oil change interval of 5,000 miles on conventional or synthetic oil, for normal daily driver vehicles. It is simply the right thing to do, if you really care about your engine".

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Old 03-12-2019, 01:17 AM   #42
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
It is very easy to see who is not interested in wading through insanely long documents and appear to be immune from observing hard physical evidence.
Yeah, as I said back in August of 2017:
Quote:
He makes some valid points (with about 4 billion more words than necessary), but he also has erroneous beliefs stated as facts. What I didn't [ask] was, "Why should anyone trust the results of a test that does not replicate actual engine operation, over the results of tests performed on actual operating engines??" Not to mention the fact that his top two results rely on adding highly corrosive chlorinated additives to pre-packaged oils, and that he's an individual operating alone without testing oversight (compared to the rigorous guidelines and oversight of the SAE/ASTM/API engine tests).
Back then you wouldn't provide specific examples of your claimed "facts," relying instead on one self-aggrandizing internet opinion to support your claims. Now, I know you don't follow everything he says, because you claim to run extended OCIs ("between 8,000 and 14,000 miles," maybe longer?) on your Saturn(s) and this bloke insists on 5,000 mile max OCIs regardless of oil type. So all I'm asking for right now is the "hard physical evidence" of your current claim that "Using a 40 weight oil in properly rebuilt engine will end up frying the oil to a hard carbon and varnish."

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Old 03-12-2019, 08:36 AM   #43
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Oil viscosity is excessive for adequate flow at the elevated oil temperatures in the engine, specifically the DOHC. That is not a high flow oil pump either. You should be knowledgeable enough to figure this out for yourself. The key is properly rebuilt. That means the rod and main clearances are restored to the nominal original assembly clearance and not 0.002 -0.0025. But actual oil temperature measurements do indicate that even at the service limit oil temperatures in excess of 250F in the pan are common. If you had actually read that long document you would have found the onset of thermal breakdown data and may have noticed that some to most of the favorite low priced oils are beginning to fail at or below 250F. Carbon is an element so it does not dissolve to remove it requires some degree of mechanical cleaning and dissolving the varnish that is binding the particles together. Most varnish solvents are not compatible with engine internals.

If you want to learn more about this specific topic I would suggest go hiring a research assistant yourself. It is far from a new phenomena.

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Old 03-12-2019, 09:01 AM   #44
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Plus, if IIRC, OldNuc used/uses Amsoil Heavy Duty Diesel (HDD) 5w-30.

Just "a bit" different than PCMO. ;-)

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Old 03-12-2019, 09:46 AM   #45
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Yes, the Saturn is running HDDO Amsoil 5w-30 and another vehicle is running the Amsoil Signature Series 5w-30.

You can run some real low quality oil and may get away with it as long as nothing goes wrong. There is no margin in low quality oils. The recommendation to use any oil and change it often quietly ignores the possibility of a failure. For most people that is a valid recommendation as most manufactures are going to il monitors or specified change intervals of 7500 miles.

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Old 03-13-2019, 03:51 PM   #46
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitcher View Post
Plus, if IIRC, OldNuc used/uses Amsoil Heavy Duty Diesel (HDD) 5w-30.

Just "a bit" different than PCMO. ;-)
Yes, it is.
A Group IV (PAO) oil that's built to ACEA A3/B3 standards, meaning it not only has diesel-level additives, but also better film strength ("cling") and shear resistance than "Energy Conserving" A1/B1/A5/B5 oils.

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Old 03-13-2019, 04:41 PM   #47
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Oil viscosity is excessive for adequate flow at the elevated oil temperatures in the engine, specifically the DOHC. That is not a high flow oil pump either. You should be knowledgeable enough to figure this out for yourself.
Hmmm.... I guess the 2X+ higher combustion temps (and combustion pressures) inside a diesel engine must be the wrong place for all of that 5W-40 oil then, eh?


Quote:
If you had actually read that long document you would have found the onset of thermal breakdown data and may have noticed that some to most of the favorite low priced oils are beginning to fail at or below 250F.
Ah, I see now where our initial assumptions have diverged. You're talking about "favorite low priced oils," and I'm talking about high-quality Grp3 and Grp4 5W-40 oils. And yes, I read as much of that person's opinion as I could before realizing that he was trying to prove his own flawed conclusions. It's pretty well documented that chlorinated additives are an extremely bad idea in engine oil.

Since we seem to be talking at cross purposes, let me try asking this another way. Without relying on this same person's opinion piece, can you provide any hard physical evidence that using a high quality Grp3 or Grp4 5W-40 synthetic oil in a properly rebuilt engine will end up frying the oil to a hard carbon and varnish?


Quote:
If you want to learn more about this specific topic I would suggest go hiring a research assistant yourself.
As always, the feeling's mutual.

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Old 03-13-2019, 05:59 PM   #48
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

The engine was designed to use that energy conserving 5w-30 as it has a slightly lower viscosity at 100C and bearing and cylinder cooling was and still is a major consideration. Running a oil that has a grade higher 100C viscosity pushes most of these oils into the point where they begin to brake down, oxidize to carbon if you want.

Diesel engines are constructed differently than gas engines and also usually specify a lower viscosity oil, all for that oil cooling issue. Older diesels also have a massive oil cooler. Also have low pressure high flow oil pumps.

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Old 03-14-2019, 04:07 PM   #49
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The engine was designed to use that energy conserving 5w-30 as it has a slightly lower viscosity at 100C and bearing and cylinder cooling was and still is a major consideration. Running a oil that has a grade higher 100C viscosity pushes most of these oils into the point where they begin to brake down, oxidize to carbon if you want.
You're saying that the Saturn engineers limited the oil system's functionality to an Energy Conserving oil's max viscosity?? This is a misleading statement for anyone trying to figure out which oil they should use, since by your own admission you're using two very different viscosity oils in your Saturns. The Signature might qualify as Energy Conserving (ACEA A5/B5, HT/HS = 3.11 cP) but the HDDO doesn't (ACEA A3/B3, HT/HS = 3.5 cP), so you'd better dump that HDDO ASAP.

As I'm sure you know (but others here may not), SAE viscosity classifications are arbitrary ranges and not fixed into meaningful "steps." In 1911 the first SAE J300 chart grouped oil weights by timed flow rates at 100C in an attempt to make it easy for consumers to understand. (Yay marketing!) So a flow rate of 25-34 seconds was put into the 30 weight range and a flow rate of 35-44 seconds was put into the 40 weight range. Today it's measured in kinematic viscosity at 100C, so anything from 9.3 cSt to 12.4 cSt is classified in the 30 weight range, and anything from 12.5 cSt to 16.2 cSt is classified in the 40 weight range. Only a 0.1 cSt difference (12.4 to 12.5) means we're looking at a new "grade"!

Your Amsoil Signature Series 5W-30 is at 10.3 cSt while your Amsoil HDDO 5W-30 is about 14% heavier with 11.7 cSt. Several other 5W-30 synthetics (including Amsoil MDDO 5W-30) are even heavier at 12+ cSt. But Mobil 1 0W-40 measures at 12.9 cSt and Delvac 1 5W-40 comes in at 13.8 cSt. Those are both smaller percentages away from a 30 weight than your two oils are from each other!


Quote:
Diesel engines are constructed differently than gas engines and also usually specify a lower viscosity oil, all for that oil cooling issue. Older diesels also have a massive oil cooler. Also have low pressure high flow oil pumps.
I agree, but you brought up engine/sump temps and oil coking. If it's the rings trapping oil closer to the higher combustion temps that create Saturn's ring/carbon buildup problem, then diesel engines create a harsher environment and even more of a problem, and this is something HDD oils are specifically designed to address.

And you still haven't shown any hard, physical evidence that using a high quality Grp3 or Grp4 5W-40 synthetic oil in a properly rebuilt engine will end up frying the oil to a hard carbon and varnish.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:53 PM   #50
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Dig further, you will eventually figure it out, or not.

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Old 03-14-2019, 09:44 PM   #51
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Wow, this is a lively thread. Sometimes debates yield something positive for many parties.

I affixed an IATS on my radiator hose and it seems to have had a positive effect on the idle. Perhaps running just a smidge less fuel at idle is good. I do not have an OBDII tool yet, though I should get one soon.

It feels like the engine is starting to smooth out with good throttle response in the 4k miles I have owned her. It looks like I am beginning to use less oil. If I can get to 2k miles per quart I will be a happy camper.

My '93 got as bad as 1200 miles per quart, and with synthetic oil and a couple piston soaks I got it to 2500 miles per quart.



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Old 03-15-2019, 02:22 PM   #52
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Dig further, you will eventually figure it out, or not.
Thanks, I already know the answer. Unfortunately, many here rely on your misinformation as being truthful and/or helpful. And some of it actually is. But much of it isn't. [Note: winky icons don't make useless comments magically useful] If you're going to make a "statement of fact," then you should have something other than baseless opinion to validate it.

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Old 03-15-2019, 02:23 PM   #53
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWSaturn247 View Post
It feels like the engine is starting to smooth out with good throttle response in the 4k miles I have owned her. It looks like I am beginning to use less oil. If I can get to 2k miles per quart I will be a happy camper.
Good to hear!

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Old 03-15-2019, 03:23 PM   #54
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
Thanks, I already know the answer. Unfortunately, many here rely on your misinformation as being truthful and/or helpful. And some of it actually is. But much of it isn't. [Note: winky icons don't make useless comments magically useful] If you're going to make a "statement of fact," then you should have something other than baseless opinion to validate it.
Why don't take your shtick back to BIOG where it might be appreciated. I have no intent to waste the time and effort to attempt to explain the differences in flow characteristics of various oil groups and the differences between Gp-3 and Gp-4 of the same SAE grade.

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Old 03-16-2019, 11:17 AM   #55
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
You're saying that the Saturn engineers limited the oil system's functionality to an Energy Conserving oil's max viscosity?? This is a misleading statement for anyone trying to figure out which oil they should use, since by your own admission you're using two very different viscosity oils in your Saturns. The Signature might qualify as Energy Conserving (ACEA A5/B5, HT/HS = 3.11 cP) but the HDDO doesn't (ACEA A3/B3, HT/HS = 3.5 cP), so you'd better dump that HDDO ASAP.

As I'm sure you know (but others here may not), SAE viscosity classifications are arbitrary ranges and not fixed into meaningful "steps." In 1911 the first SAE J300 chart grouped oil weights by timed flow rates at 100C in an attempt to make it easy for consumers to understand. (Yay marketing!) So a flow rate of 25-34 seconds was put into the 30 weight range and a flow rate of 35-44 seconds was put into the 40 weight range. Today it's measured in kinematic viscosity at 100C, so anything from 9.3 cSt to 12.4 cSt is classified in the 30 weight range, and anything from 12.5 cSt to 16.2 cSt is classified in the 40 weight range. Only a 0.1 cSt difference (12.4 to 12.5) means we're looking at a new "grade"!

Your Amsoil Signature Series 5W-30 is at 10.3 cSt while your Amsoil HDDO 5W-30 is about 14% heavier with 11.7 cSt. Several other 5W-30 synthetics (including Amsoil MDDO 5W-30) are even heavier at 12+ cSt. But Mobil 1 0W-40 measures at 12.9 cSt and Delvac 1 5W-40 comes in at 13.8 cSt. Those are both smaller percentages away from a 30 weight than your two oils are from each other!



I agree, but you brought up engine/sump temps and oil coking. If it's the rings trapping oil closer to the higher combustion temps that create Saturn's ring/carbon buildup problem, then diesel engines create a harsher environment and even more of a problem, and this is something HDD oils are specifically designed to address.

And you still haven't shown any hard, physical evidence that using a high quality Grp3 or Grp4 5W-40 synthetic oil in a properly rebuilt engine will end up frying the oil to a hard carbon and varnish.
Misleading and blanket statements about oil are nothing new here, it's been going on for years. But we know that the reality is that without the constant moving of the goal posts, the many statements are in fact just that... misleading.

If people are scared to think for themselves, they might all end up with the same oils. And then that oil will be great for certain people, and completely wrong for the next. But we can reference a blog, misdirect, and then cherry pick within a blog to "prove" the best oils.

The giant compromise that is motor oil selection for any S Series is rarely mentioned. Differing wear levels, types of use, operating environment, driver style, etc, etc don't get discussed. Because that would introduce all the variables that should be considered to find the motor oils that would be the best compromise for any individual car/driver combination.

It's way easier to make a blanket statement that would possibly scare people towards the oil you select. Using "this" will cause varnish, using "that" will overheat the engine, using "the other" won't lubricate well enough.

But the reality is that over the years on the forums here, I've seen few oil related failures posted other than those caused by abuse and lack of maintenance. And people have posted using from 0-20 weight oils to 20-50 weight oils, and their Saturns didn't blow up. And depending on all the variables, any of those oils might have been a very good choice, or a terrible choice.



Formula 1 has no specific engine oil restrictions (other than intentionally using it as fuel) and yet even they compromise every single race. They also pre heat and pre oil the engines, keep them at temp, and run them through computer controlled warm up procedures. Yet they often change viscosity race to race despite all of that, based on engine loading vs cooling on various tracks.

I'm trying right now to contact the teams and warn them before the start of the Australian GP tomorrow. Apparently due to the extremely tight tolerances they run the 60+ weight oils they use are far too high a viscosity, and will promote carbon and varnish in the engines!

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Old 03-17-2019, 12:09 AM   #56
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Signmaster View Post
Misleading and blanket statements about oil are nothing new here, it's been going on for years. But we know that the reality is that without the constant moving of the goal posts, the many statements are in fact just that... misleading.

If people are scared to think for themselves, they might all end up with the same oils. And then that oil will be great for certain people, and completely wrong for the next. But we can reference a blog, misdirect, and then cherry pick within a blog to "prove" the best oils.

The giant compromise that is motor oil selection for any S Series is rarely mentioned. Differing wear levels, types of use, operating environment, driver style, etc, etc don't get discussed. Because that would introduce all the variables that should be considered to find the motor oils that would be the best compromise for any individual car/driver combination.

It's way easier to make a blanket statement that would possibly scare people towards the oil you select. Using "this" will cause varnish, using "that" will overheat the engine, using "the other" won't lubricate well enough.

But the reality is that over the years on the forums here, I've seen few oil related failures posted other than those caused by abuse and lack of maintenance. And people have posted using from 0-20 weight oils to 20-50 weight oils, and their Saturns didn't blow up. And depending on all the variables, any of those oils might have been a very good choice, or a terrible choice.

Formula 1 has no specific engine oil restrictions (other than intentionally using it as fuel) and yet even they compromise every single race. They also pre heat and pre oil the engines, keep them at temp, and run them through computer controlled warm up procedures. Yet they often change viscosity race to race despite all of that, based on engine loading vs cooling on various tracks.

I'm trying right now to contact the teams and warn them before the start of the Australian GP tomorrow. Apparently due to the extremely tight tolerances they run the 60+ weight oils they use are far too high a viscosity, and will promote carbon and varnish in the engines!
A lot of excellent observations about individual driving conditions and how they affect oil selection. Climate, geography, vehicle maintenance, trip length, and driver personality all play out differently in each engine!

Your reference of F1 engines is also informative. It's been commented in numerous car forums that vehicle models identical to ours (but sold outside the US) spec heavier oils than we do. The consensus is that US CAFE requirements drive manufacturers to spec lighter weight oils to avoid US Federal fees and penalties, but elsewhere in the world mechanical longevity receives priority. Of course, that's changing these days as more countries look to conserving petroleum resources at the expense of manufacturing resources.

Good stuff!

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Old 03-17-2019, 12:20 AM   #57
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Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Why don't take your shtick back to BIOG where it might be appreciated. I have no intent to waste the time and effort to attempt to explain the differences in flow characteristics of various oil groups and the differences between Gp-3 and Gp-4 of the same SAE grade.
So I take it that's a "No" on providing any data supporting your claims?

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Old 03-17-2019, 11:44 AM   #58
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1995 SL1
Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiron View Post
A lot of excellent observations about individual driving conditions and how they affect oil selection. Climate, geography, vehicle maintenance, trip length, and driver personality all play out differently in each engine!

Your reference of F1 engines is also informative. It's been commented in numerous car forums that vehicle models identical to ours (but sold outside the US) spec heavier oils than we do. The consensus is that US CAFE requirements drive manufacturers to spec lighter weight oils to avoid US Federal fees and penalties, but elsewhere in the world mechanical longevity receives priority. Of course, that's changing these days as more countries look to conserving petroleum resources at the expense of manufacturing resources.

Good stuff!
I'm of the strong belief that CAFE drove some of the changes in this country. Though some lighter oils do seem to protect well, if everyone was so sure that the newer thought of "run the lightest oil you can that produces sufficient pressure" then we would see a lot of street builds running 0-20 oils. And yet we don't.

As for the forums, blogs, and online sources of information, I've long since ditched most of them. While many of them do have good information, they have just as much if not more misinformation. Though it can take some frustrating searching, Google Scholar often has open access peer reviewed stuff that goes well beyond what we usually find online.

As for the fearmongering about temps, several studies show that the complexities of how temps and conditions affect different types of oils is much greater than that of those thinking "if it gets hot it's shot" mentality. To quote one of the studies I have bookmarked.

"Kinematic viscosity is a complex manifestation of the reactions of hydrocarbons in base oil and depletion of various additives like viscosity modifiers, antiwear and antioxidants."

The study then goes on to show the impact of heat ageing that are much lesser than those expressed within the "expert" blog mentioned in this thread.

Several studies cite how oil viscosity is not stable through the life cycle, and often dips at certain intervals of use, then rises back up later in the cycle. And this might have more impact at certain temps (cold vs hot) as this cycle takes place.



And sadly, I could not contact the Renault F1 team in time to warn them to reduce the viscosity oil they used. This resulted in two DNFs. But the team that went to a blog online changed oil and placed 1st and 2nd in the race.

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Old 03-17-2019, 01:06 PM   #59
Eiron
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1999 SW2
Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Signmaster View Post
I'm of the strong belief that CAFE drove some of the changes in this country. Though some lighter oils do seem to protect well, if everyone was so sure that the newer thought of "run the lightest oil you can that produces sufficient pressure" then we would see a lot of street builds running 0-20 oils. And yet we don't.
And a few weeks ago I saw 0W-16 going out on the shelves. 0W-12 is soon to follow!


Quote:
As for the forums, blogs, and online sources of information, I've long since ditched most of them. While many of them do have good information, they have just as much if not more misinformation. Though it can take some frustrating searching, Google Scholar often has open access peer reviewed stuff that goes well beyond what we usually find online.
I haven't heard of Google Scholar before. Thanks!


Quote:
As for the fearmongering about temps, several studies show that the complexities of how temps and conditions affect different types of oils is much greater than that of those thinking "if it gets hot it's shot" mentality. To quote one of the studies I have bookmarked.

"Kinematic viscosity is a complex manifestation of the reactions of hydrocarbons in base oil and depletion of various additives like viscosity modifiers, antiwear and antioxidants."

The study then goes on to show the impact of heat ageing that are much lesser than those expressed within the "expert" blog mentioned in this thread.

Several studies cite how oil viscosity is not stable through the life cycle, and often dips at certain intervals of use, then rises back up later in the cycle. And this might have more impact at certain temps (cold vs hot) as this cycle takes place.
I remember a theory postulated several years ago for this phenomenon of oil viscosity fluctuation as being the result of simultaneous shearing (thinning) and volatile evaporation/burn-off (thickening). This still seems to be a reasonable explanation to me.


Quote:
And sadly, I could not contact the Renault F1 team in time to warn them to reduce the viscosity oil they used. This resulted in two DNFs. But the team that went to a blog online changed oil and placed 1st and 2nd in the race.
At least one team had the foresight to trust an anonymous blogger!

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Old 03-17-2019, 03:21 PM   #60
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2001 SL1
Default Re: Well darn, my '99 SL2 laps oil like a BMW

Well, here's my neck out for the chopping block again...
Since 0w-16 oil IS now available for car use, so how come there is always so much flack generated when I mention that since the 1970's, every car of the 20+ cars/trucks I have ever owned has had:

3k oil changes (all dino, until the last year or so),
No sludge issues,
None needed any throttle body, egr, or anything cleaned from soot, etc,
No engine has ever been opened up for any reason,
None ever had rod issues, never replaced any timing chains, no tappet problems, nothing, nothing but good daily service from these engines from several breeds of car manufacturers.
None burn or use oil,

AND here is probably why these engines have lasted so well: They all have had 1 quart of Dexron III added in place of 1 quart of oil at each oil and filter, change, and I usually the purchase least expensive oil and filter available.

The '96 suburban has 331,200+ miles on it, and is up for sale, only because we are going from 5 vehicles to 2.

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